| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Nathan |
Posted - 12/06/2008 : 15:19:41
no matter how much training you do you do not know how you will react until it happens. the stresses of a defensive shooting are immense. you dont have time to think the situation through (if you did you would have time to begin your retreat!), you simply (hopefully!) react! you lose your ability to reason and your finer motorskills almost immediately. try this...walk up to your door, remove your keys, unlock your door and walk inside your home. now try the same series of steps again, but this time do it with a 125 pound rotweiller running towards you with bad intentions and youll see what i mean about your finer motorskills and ability to reason. under the stresses of a defensive shooting you will also loose your hearing for the most part, and you will develop a strong sense of tunnel vision. there is no way you can train to handle the stresses of a defensive shooting; you can only prepare yourself mentally and train until the motions are instinctual because when the bullets start to fly you will revert back to what is instinctual. based on that, i have a hard time recommending manual safeties on carry weapons. pulling a trigger is absolutely instinctual; youve been practicing it since you were old enough to point your finger-gun at your brother and yell "bang". under the stresses of a defensive shooting i feel that most anybody can pull a trigger but only the most highly trained people will have the frame of mind to disengage the manual safety before pulling the trigger. i dont have a problem with manual safeties for those who dedicate to training to the point that the safety sweep is instinctual; therein lies the problem. most people will train, but will they really train to the point that the safety sweep becomes instinctual? i can promise you that a gun fight is not the time to find out. with this in mind, i cannot imagine why anyone would want an extra step standing between themselves and their ability to stop the threat that is trying to kill them. many good men have died pulling the trigger on a loaded gun that wouldnt discharge due to the safety.
CLICK HERE for the 8 meg video. |
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| gunsmith |
Posted - 05/15/2012 : 18:42:24
I prefer the DA/SA -- a Sig 226 or a CZ75. I got a Browning HP and at the range I cock it, then put on the safety, then take off the safety. I find it easier just to rack the slide than figure out the safety.
But your gun, and how you carry, is dependent on your situation. If I was the clerk in that video - it would be a DA gun |
| clee123 |
Posted - 05/15/2012 : 13:40:15
This is one of the reasons I carry a Bersa Thunder UC Pro in 9mm.
I can safely carry with the safety off, one in the tube, and have a DA 1st shot. |
| sgtgrogg |
Posted - 05/11/2012 : 07:16:06
here is my 2 cents on this
you should practice often, with the weapon you are going to carry in the manner you are going to carry, so that you are proficient with it. if it is one that has a safety like a 1911 i suggest using it so that you remember to sweep that safety as you draw. practice in stress shoots as well. that is make a stressfull situation that you might forget the safety. for example do 50 pushups and then shoot or run in place for 60 seconds, you get the idea. practice is key though. can never have enough practice.
I have been carrying in defense of my country for over 21 years and have been for protection of my clients for another 5 |
| Bronze |
Posted - 04/04/2012 : 17:19:46
My EDC M&P 9 has ZERO safetys I am the safety. |
| 45tacman |
Posted - 04/04/2012 : 11:42:52
I think the one common element in all of this thread is that any gun in any situation is potentially useless without the proper amount of practice to minimize mistakes and hesitation. I carry with the safety on and like others in this thread consider it's release as part of my draw. Practice has made it instinctive (though admittedly never yet under life threatening conditions). One thing I will say though is that this type of exchange is great for opening new lines of thought. Thanks everyone. |
| gunsmith |
Posted - 12/26/2011 : 18:50:12
I carry a Sig 226 because it's a DA/SA ... |
| hotbrass |
Posted - 12/26/2011 : 18:21:53
I carried a 1911 for years. Then I went looking for a polymer gun. Bought an XD. I like the grip safety.
That video is very chilling. |
| maat |
Posted - 09/25/2011 : 19:34:33
As a newbie to CC, I have no problem with, or intentions otherwise, than to carry without my safety on. I am completely comfortable with having double action with my first shot for safety and protection. |
| Bulldog |
Posted - 07/21/2011 : 02:12:10
It looks like the BG used a revolver with no safety to worry about just pull & fire, This is one reason Why a revolver can take preference over a semi auto that has its safety kept on.? |
| Flyboy |
Posted - 12/25/2010 : 17:00:29
quote:
The BG got off three rounds to the jeweler and he never got a round off.
True but, I don't think it tells the whole story. Maybe the jeweler is a putz who does everything poorly. I've seen it 10 jillion times - there are some people who pick things up quickly, and there are others who can practice a technique night and day and still do it lousily.
I think the danger is looking at one video of a jeweler you know nothing about and deciding therefor to adjust your tractics one way or another based on how he handleds a situation. We all knew that kid in grade school who couldn't even kick a soccer ball without falling down, right? Maybe the jeweler is that guy.
Edited: I've watched the video again and it appears the jeweler just probably wasn't going to do the right thing regardless. This is a missing part of the equasion that is nearly impossible to pin down...some guys are just bumbling uncoordinated people who twice a day trip over cracks in the sidewalk.
The jeweler suspected something was up, you could see that. But he ignored those hairs on the back of his neck that should have been telling him to get behind a counter, get your weak side facing ahead, and get your hand on your gun. The guy, rest his soul, just did a lot of things wrong besides having the safety on.
I come back to it yet again, give me good SA over other factors every day. A guy with good SA can get away with a lot of other missteps that are common when adrenelin is coursing through your veins like water through a firehose. |
| Flyboy |
Posted - 12/25/2010 : 16:48:50
quote:
Originally posted by larson014
quote:
Originally posted by Nathan
i dont have a problem with manual safeties for those who dedicate to training to the point that the safety sweep is instinctual; therein lies the problem. most people will train, but will they really train to the point that the safety sweep becomes instinctual? i can promise you that a gun fight is not the time to find out.
fish have instincts like returning home to the stream that they were born in every year, but humans have no instincts, everything we know we are taught, when it comes to manual safties, i refer to the catchy phrase
Keep it simple stupid (KISS)
manual safeties just complicate a very intense and already caotic situation
on the other hand, it takes 3000 repititions of the same movement to "learn" to do a certain movement without thinking before acting, with enough training or repitition, it may be possable to automatically disengage the safety, but in a dynamic critical incident, can you afford to make that mistake?
+1000 |
| Flyboy |
Posted - 12/25/2010 : 16:42:36
quote:
[i]The trade off is to accept the danger of accidental discharges like many cops have carrying Glocks. Is the Glock a good gun? It is a very good gun. Is a glock inherantly dangerous? Yes it is. It is also a double action only similar to a revolver without a hammer to cock.
Gee, when I say that I'm summarily pummelled. It must be my breath.  |
| Flyboy |
Posted - 12/25/2010 : 16:19:40
I agree with most of the OP except the part that no amount of training will help and that you'll revert to what is instinctual. I've heard that argument for decades: Aw that karate crap won't work because when the SHTTF you'll revert back to "instinctive" fist fighting.
Fist fighting is not instinctive - we learned to do that. Assuming you had good training you will revert back to what is most prevelent in your experience and muscle memory. If you've kicked ten times more than you've punched, you'll revert to kicks under stress.
It is true that nothing prepares you for the real thing like the real thing, but endless repitition improves your odds.
Same goes for shooting, I'd assume, in that you can't expect to revert to actions that you do once a month at the range. It has to become second nature.
The OP is right though, I think. I think it points to what I've always thought, that there is a LOT of nuance involved that doesn't meet the eye. People tend to make it an easy simple set of rules:
* Chambered round = good. Unchambered = bad.
* 2 guns = 1. 1 gun = none.
There are tons of gray shades to these scenarios...one of them turns out to be safeties.
|
| BearTaylor |
Posted - 12/09/2010 : 12:46:59
I found I'm doing the same with my new Ruger SR40 with a manual safety. After range testing I recently started carrying it. It's my only only carry gun with a manual safety so I simply make sure the safety is off immediately after holstering the weapon with a round in the chamber. I wondered if anybody else is doing the same thing. |
| elshadow001 |
Posted - 12/09/2010 : 10:34:49
I carry a ruger p90. As a matter of practice, I always check to make sure the safety is off after putting it in my holster. I carry with one in the barrel. From then on all I have to do is pull the trigger.
Hopefully hit an object I aim at.
|
| LandonJ |
Posted - 04/04/2010 : 12:59:04
I think we've all prematurely discharged at least once in our life. |
| Nathan |
Posted - 04/04/2010 : 12:57:04
quote:
Originally posted by yankeejib
No such thing as an AD with Glocks.
you can actually have either. ND covers when you didnt intend to shoot at all. AD covers when you intended to shoot, but not when you did. for example, when at the range i practice pulling my trigger as close to seer release as possible without discharging the weapon. sometimes it goes too far and the weapon accidentally discharges. being pointed downrange and expecting to shoot anyway, there is nothing negligent about the discharge; it was simply premature thus accidental. |
| Joshua |
Posted - 04/04/2010 : 12:14:23
While I would have liked to have a safety and I believe I could have trained myself to use it properly I am glad the M&P9 I purchased didn't have a safety on it. When I start carrying I can know that all I have to do it point and pull the trigger. |
| Elm Creek Smith |
Posted - 03/24/2010 : 18:42:16
I carried a 1911A1 for 16 years on a daily basis, then the Army went to the M9 Beretta. I changed my EDC guns to revolvers after a brief flirtation with a CZ-75, a Glock 23, and a Kahr K9. The CZ was great but I'm not enamored of the 9mm, which explains why the Kahr finally left as well. The Glock? Well, I kinda got tired of it.
I carry revolvers. I like the point-bang interface.
ECS |
| yankeejib |
Posted - 03/24/2010 : 17:59:28
quote:
Originally posted by EPWrangler
So, how instinctive is it to thumb back a hammer on a saa? It seems to be how you train that really matters as you tend to shoot as you train. If you do not train then a good double action revolver is hard to beat. It is safe and easy to shoot for most people unlike Glocks which seem to AD on "trained" officers snd others with disturbing regularity. Last one I personally know of the bullet shot two officers after hitting the floor of the courthouse where the officer was holstering his Glock after taking it from locked storage. Oops!
Bull . No such thing as an AD with Glocks. It's a ND: Negligent discharge. Cops with a total of 350 rounds of range experience have trouble indexing properly. Any gun will fire with your finger in the trigger guard when you re-holster. I do agree with you re: revolvers. Probably the best option for the novice. Hammer back on drawing my revolver is as instinctive as indexing my Glock (or any weapon). |
| Bob Long |
Posted - 03/24/2010 : 10:12:15
Well, I have always felt like a safety on a gun is like a seat belt in a car, it is OPTIONAL! I now truly hate safetys after being at the range with my wife's new CCW, which is a crappy SCCY, NEW, and out of the box, it did manage to fire 4 rounds, BEFORE a damn internal sping came off and engaged the trigger in the safety mode, no matter what I or the Range Master tried, the dern thing was useless, you can buy the BEST hollow points, you can buy the best oil, you can get the best hand grips and the best sites out there money can buy but if the safety breaks and the trigger cant make the dern thing go bang, then all that money could have been spent on your funeral, because the bad guy, after laughing his tuck-us off will kill you. Dont buy cheap, dont dress up cheap, RUN AWAY FROM CHEAP, However, I do love my Taurus. |
| jimmypop |
Posted - 02/17/2010 : 15:13:12
quote:
Originally posted by Geoff
That is some SCARY man.
That is EXACTLY the reason while I dont use a safety, I have caught some criticism about not carry in the safe position when I have a manual safety on my weapon.
This is a great argument for the cause thats for sure, if you do have a safety PRACTICE TAKING IT OFF when you practice shooting
all of my guns that I can and have carried thus far all have manual safety, and until I came into a situation that could have turned ugly, I didn't realize that importance. Even though its only the flick of a thumb, if the defecation hits the ventilation, you may not know to turn it off. Thus, I have safety on when I put the guns in holster, but turn it off as soon as its secure. |
| EPWrangler |
Posted - 01/25/2010 : 15:49:09
I will tell you I am no fan of slide mounted safeties. I will not own a gun with one if I can avoid it. 1911 style safeties to me are as instinctive as pulling thr trigger.
Who ever claimed pulling a trigger was instinctive? It takes training too. More missed shos are from poor trigger control than will ever be from forgotten safeties. Frankly, I appreciate the Marine Corp idea that you should hit what you shoot at. My son-in-law told me when he joined the Navy they qualified by hitting a target the size of a barrel lid so he transfered into the Marine Corp and he said it was like hitting a coffee can lid. Then he beacme a SEAL and he said ther was no excuse for a miss. Kind of depen ds on what is expected. I'll stay with my 1911, thank you, and my 357 bug. Clint Smith was right about comforting. |
| rocketgeezer |
Posted - 01/20/2010 : 18:50:03
I have four weapons that I rotate carrying, a Taurus 709, a G-27, a 442 Smith, compact 45 Bersa, better half carrys another 709 and a 738 yea I know a mouse gun but shes little and likes it on her ankle, my favorite combination is the 45 in my back and the Smith on my ankle, we also have a P-22 Walther to shoot at the range, mostly for her when I'm busy reloading the mags for the others,LOL I also have a super redhawk (454 Casull) which is not really a carry gun or a range gun to costly to shoot, I DO NOT USE SAFETYS ON ANY OF THEM, for the very reason Nathan stated chances are when the SHTF most people WILL NOT remember the safety, if you train rigorusly to release the safety when drawing your weapon you MAY remember in a critical situation, but more likely will not |
| EPWrangler |
Posted - 01/20/2010 : 10:10:22
I think you shoot as you train. if you are unwillikngto train to shoot with a gun that has a safety then you will not do well with it. The trade off is to accept the danger of accidental discharges like many cops have carrying Glocks. Is the Glock a good gun? It is a very good gun. Is a glock inherantly dangerous? Yes it is. It is also a double action only similar to a revolver without a hammer to cock.
Brings me to the title of this thread...Carry Science in my opinion should be Carry Art. Science shoul.d be repeatable every time with every one. Even the practice of medicine is recognized as an art. It would be nice if the same medicine worked for everyone but it doesn't and there is no one answer to carrying a firearm. Pay your money and pick your poison. Mine says 1911 Compact Stainless and my thumb is trained as is my trigger finger. If you won't train then don't complain. |
