| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| emr454 |
Posted - 07/05/2012 : 19:55:26
Got the itch to upgrade my daily carry to .40S&W. Can't say I have a real NEED to switch, but would like some more oomph behind my rounds. Currently I carry an XD9sc or a PF9. I can't make up my mind between the S&W SD40, Kahr CW40, or the Springfield XD40sc. Took a look at a S&W SD40 and a Kahr CW40 today at the local gun store. The SD40 looks and feels nice in the hand and was $350 new. The CW40 is a tad smaller and probably easier to conceal, but holds 4 less rounds than the SD and was $50 more. I have no previous experience with either of these guns.
I would like to hear from those that own these guns as far as what you like/dislike, etc. |
| 25 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| SKIandSKY |
Posted - 07/16/2012 : 23:21:45
I carried a Kahr CW45 (P45 "elite" trigger job) all day today in a Mitch Rosen belt slide holster. I don't even notice it anymore.
I did however read somewhere once how a .40 caliber had really good one-shot stop records in about all loadings. That was in print years ago when I used to buy a gun magazine every two weeks.
For myself however, I think I'll stick with .45 for summer carry on the belt, my 9mm Kahr for "deep carry" when concealment overrides speed of draw, and then later get a 1911 or "combat" Hi Power when winter comes and I have the money for either.
I have also decided, base on this site, stuff I've read, physics, and tnoutdoors9 youtube videos that "heavy for caliber" is the way to go. So 147 grain and 230 grain Gold Dots in my 9mm and .45's.
If YOU though, want to get a .40 for carry, DO SO. It has very good one-shot stop actual shootings and can be shot well. |
| nmuskier01 |
Posted - 07/16/2012 : 20:30:49
quote:
Originally posted by GlockASA
Federal HST 180gr .40 S&W expands .74" and penetrates 13 inches in this test by tnoutdoors9.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UWy2AB_AQYo
In terms of both expansion and penetration the 9mm +p 147 gr HST expanded .70" and penetrated 11.25 inches.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i67WILeK66Y
The 147gr standard pressure 9mm HST expanded .66" and 13.25 inches penetration in his ballistics media.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PNRqrJRq4T0&feature=relmfu
With that said, heavy loads for both calibers will certainly do the job. If you feel more comfortable with a few extra rounds of 9mm, have at it. Same goes for the perceived benefits of the .40 S&W. Bottom line, make sure you are proficient with your carry weapon of choice and the nitpicking between the top loads of each caliber becomes essentially moot for most civilian uses.
I carry a Glock 23, loaded with 13+1 180gr HST, I would feel just as comfortable with 15+1 147gr HST in a Glock 19.
Level II and IIA body armor will stop just about every handgun round (.40 and 9mm included). It isn't until you get up to .357sig rounds and .44 magnum rounds (which can be stopped by Level IIIA and higher body armor.) that there is a noticble difference in power.
At least there is no debating the quality of a 12-gauge for home defense.
...and we're done!  |
| GlockASA |
Posted - 07/16/2012 : 17:56:06
Federal HST 180gr .40 S&W expands .74" and penetrates 13 inches in this test by tnoutdoors9.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UWy2AB_AQYo
In terms of both expansion and penetration the 9mm +p 147 gr HST expanded .70" and penetrated 11.25 inches.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i67WILeK66Y
The 147gr standard pressure 9mm HST expanded .66" and 13.25 inches penetration in his ballistics media.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PNRqrJRq4T0&feature=relmfu
With that said, heavy loads for both calibers will certainly do the job. If you feel more comfortable with a few extra rounds of 9mm, have at it. Same goes for the perceived benefits of the .40 S&W. Bottom line, make sure you are proficient with your carry weapon of choice and the nitpicking between the top loads of each caliber becomes essentially moot for most civilian uses.
I carry a Glock 23, loaded with 13+1 180gr HST, I would feel just as comfortable with 15+1 147gr HST in a Glock 19.
Level II and IIA body armor will stop just about every handgun round (.40 and 9mm included). It isn't until you get up to .357sig rounds and .44 magnum rounds (which can be stopped by Level IIIA and higher body armor.) that there is a noticble difference in power.
At least there is no debating the quality of a 12-gauge for home defense.
|
| modernswords |
Posted - 07/16/2012 : 17:47:54
quote:
Originally posted by nmuskier01
quote:
Originally posted by Nathan
while i do agree with this, keep in mind that just because it starts out bigger doesnt necessary mean it will still be bigger after both expand. for example, the federal HST 147 grain 9mm penetrates (bare gelatin) in excess of 13" while expanding to .72". thats simply incredible, and actually rivals many loadings in .45.
Don't betray years of pragmatic, data based logic by comparing 9mm HST to "other" .45 loads. How does 9mm, .40, and .45 HST compare?
Yes, bigger is still better.
Geez, sometimes 9mm fans seem as bad as the Glock fans! 
Agreed. I believe what we have here is credit to the ammunition manufacturers for striving to make better bullets/products. I liken it to rifle hunting bullets. A standard 30-06 load 30 years ago would have a huge performance disadvantage on large, heavy game compared to something like a bonded or copper x-bullet produced today. A .40 180 grain HST is till better than a 9mm 147 grain HST. The difference is that the 9mm is MUCH improved over what was available over 20 years ago for the round. |
| 5lima30ret@gmail.com |
Posted - 07/16/2012 : 17:12:07
I also have to agree with Nathan on this one! There is no significant advantage for a civilian in going with a .40 over a 9mm (with proper ammunition). One of the main reasons law enforcement switched to .40 was that .40 works better with barriers than 9mm. I have seen first hand 9mm's deflect and NOT penetrate car windshields. This would not be a concern for civilian ccw. JMHO. |
| nmuskier01 |
Posted - 07/16/2012 : 14:27:02
quote:
Originally posted by Nathan
while i do agree with this, keep in mind that just because it starts out bigger doesnt necessary mean it will still be bigger after both expand. for example, the federal HST 147 grain 9mm penetrates (bare gelatin) in excess of 13" while expanding to .72". thats simply incredible, and actually rivals many loadings in .45.
Don't betray years of pragmatic, data based logic by comparing 9mm HST to "other" .45 loads. How does 9mm, .40, and .45 HST compare?
Yes, bigger is still better.
Geez, sometimes 9mm fans seem as bad as the Glock fans! |
| Tim |
Posted - 07/16/2012 : 13:46:28
quote:
Originally posted by Nathan thats simply incredible, and actually rivals many loadings in .45.
Nathan, given the 9mm advantage of much more capacity, doesn't it also close the gap with 45 as well? It seems to me the only reason to shoot 45 is if you like 1911's. And even then, wouldn't the 10mm be a better choice in that platform? |
| modernswords |
Posted - 07/06/2012 : 18:28:38
Another consideration (that is no. 1 in my book) is making sure that whatever (acceptable penetrating) load is chosen, it MUST function 100% in your gun. I have come across a few 9mms that had issues with reliability when using 147 grain bullets. One was a Kel Tec P11... |
| JBARRETT |
Posted - 07/06/2012 : 18:00:06
I agree with nathan on this. I have 9m and .40s only. No .45s. But I would rather carry any of my 9ms than any of my .40s. When .40 was all I had thats what I carried, but with 147grain HST I can comfortably say I have no need to upgrade. When I take into account for the additional space, weight and price (and I reload) there is no way I can even consider practicing regularly like I can with my 9mm.
Much in the same way I cannot justify moving from .223 to 7.62 in my rifles. Although I do plan on having the option shortly (deciding to start building a 300 blackout or bigger), I cant justify switching completely to the larger and more expensive for everyday uses. |
| modernswords |
Posted - 07/06/2012 : 17:52:31
quote:
Originally posted by Nathan
quote:
Originally posted by emr454
Are you basing your decision on capacity/weight/size of the guns as compared to the 9mm or ballistics of the round itself?
weight/size of guns is irrelevant since they tend to run in the same guns with different barrels. capacity is a little higher with the 9mm, and ballistically the 147 grain 9mm proves to be the superior penetrator dang near every time. the 180 grain in .40 isnt bad at all and comes closer to the 147 grain 9mm than does the 165 .40.
to be honest, i just dont really see the point in .40 anymore. once upon a time it filled a nice gap between the 125 grain range 9mm and the .45, but the 147 grain 9mm has closed that gap.
Maybe I missed it somewhere, but if not mentioned:
It is important to note thst the construction of any bullet is often more important than weight alone. A Speer Gold Dot vs a Hornady XTP or Remington GS or Winchester silvertip will have variations in penetration and expansion characteristics. There are 124 grain bullets that I would rather load than certain 147s. |
| Nathan |
Posted - 07/06/2012 : 17:40:50
quote:
Originally posted by modernswords
the edge is always with the bigger bullet.
while i do agree with this, keep in mind that just because it starts out bigger doesnt necessary mean it will still be bigger after both expand. for example, the federal HST 147 grain 9mm penetrates (bare gelatin) in excess of 13" while expanding to .72". thats simply incredible, and actually rivals many loadings in .45.
.40 isnt a "bad" load by any means and i wont hesitate to carry it...its just not what it once was (the logical step between 9mm and .45) and i dont see a point in it, anymore....not with the great leaps 9mm ballistics have had. |
| modernswords |
Posted - 07/06/2012 : 17:01:47
Any bullet that will not penetrate through vital organs at less than optimal angles is unacceptable. Of those that will penetrate, the edge is always with the bigger bullet.
http://www.firearmstactical.com/pdf/fbi-hwfe.pdf |
| Tye |
Posted - 07/06/2012 : 13:44:14
How about the beretta NANO in .40 (if it ever comes out) and Charter Arms Pitbull Revolver, also in .40? I'm a big advocate of the "2 for 1 purchase". I do have an affection for the .40 S&W (primarily use 165gr). That being said, I also have confidence in my 9mm guns loaded with 147gr.
Hey, maybe when Obamma starts enforcing the UN Small Arms Treaty/Weapons Ban (regardless of ratification) us .40S&W owners won't have to immediately surrender our handguns, vrs. the "Military" 9mm NATO platforms that will be sooner classified as "evil military guns" of war.
BR, |
| SKIandSKY |
Posted - 07/06/2012 : 13:09:18
I am not a huge .40 fan, due more to circumstance than anything else. A friend loaned me his Kahr .CW 45 with the P45 trigger upgrade and I love it. I carry it in his beltslide holster and it is really cool. 6+1 of 230 grain hydroshocks. My other carry piece is a Kahr P9 Covert and I await a Fist Holster Universal that is made for Crimson Trace Lasergrips.
Kahrs are slim, light, easy recoiling, and the triggers are long but smooth and easy. Just what she said....LoL
If you could, try out a Kahr 45. Same size as a S&W 442 and much more powerful.
Good luck. |
| firefighter203 |
Posted - 07/06/2012 : 10:35:30
I've got the G23. It's my primary carry gun but I switched to the .357Sig barrel effectively making it a G32. |
| Nathan |
Posted - 07/06/2012 : 10:29:23
quote:
Originally posted by SZz
Isn't going to 9mm over .40 against the "Go Heavy" dogma of this site????
the concept of go heavy applies to each individual caliber. in other words, i cannot tell you that .45 is better for your individual needs than say, 9mm...but i can tell you that 147 grain 9mm will penetrate deeper and expand larger than 125 grain 9mm. i cannot tell you that .40 is better for your individual needs than is .38 special, but i can tell you that 180 grain .40 will penetrate deeper than 165 grain .40, and i can tell you that 158 grain .38 special will penetrate deeper than 125 grain .38 special. etc. this of course, being apples to apples comparisons. assuming service caliber i cannot tell you what caliber to choose, but whatever caliber you choose, go heavy for best ballistic performance. |
| SZz |
Posted - 07/06/2012 : 08:48:47
Isn't going to 9mm over .40 against the "Go Heavy" dogma of this site????
After being forced to use a USELESS 9mm Berreta in the miltary for 28 years, I would not OWN a 9mm for ANY reason... carrying 16 rounds is of little use if you have to pump 3-5 rounds in each BG to put them down.
The .40 180 gr is the SMALLEST bullet I would carry...
..and only because the Khar PM40 is the same size as any small 9mm and fits easily in my pocket.
For anything but pocket carry or BUG, I want a .45!!!!! or .454 Casull, or .50 S&W, or... sorry, got carried away... :) |
| Silent Majority |
Posted - 07/06/2012 : 07:47:04
quote:
Originally posted by emr454
. . .
Forgot to mention I'm in NY, so 10 rds is the limit for me unfortunately.
Well that's 10 more than Illinois allows. :) |
| graceandtruth |
Posted - 07/06/2012 : 05:45:36
quote:
Originally posted by emr454
quote:
Originally posted by jmhyer
So, effectiveness of 9 being now similar to .40, maybe you should look at 9's that have more capacity and are at least as easy to carry as your current xd9sc. That opens a lot of doors in my opinion...including my current fav - the m&p9 fullsize...or even the G19
Forgot to mention I'm in NY, so 10 rds is the limit for me unfortunately.
I'm in NY too. I have the G23 (.40). As said here, if I could, I'd go back and swtich the G23 for the G32 (.357sig). If I were you and looking for a new carry gun, I would get the glock 32. |
| emr454 |
Posted - 07/06/2012 : 04:09:06
quote:
Originally posted by jmhyer
So, effectiveness of 9 being now similar to .40, maybe you should look at 9's that have more capacity and are at least as easy to carry as your current xd9sc. That opens a lot of doors in my opinion...including my current fav - the m&p9 fullsize...or even the G19
Forgot to mention I'm in NY, so 10 rds is the limit for me unfortunately. |
| medic68 |
Posted - 07/05/2012 : 23:47:50
In my opinion the G19 is one weapon no one should be without in 9MM. For a smaller BUG you cant beat the G26. I have sold every .40 except for one new in the box unfired PPS. |
| jmhyer |
Posted - 07/05/2012 : 22:05:35
I sure do love the m&p9 with it's 17+1 capacity! |
| jmhyer |
Posted - 07/05/2012 : 22:04:15
So, effectiveness of 9 being now similar to .40, maybe you should look at 9's that have more capacity and are at least as easy to carry as your current xd9sc. That opens a lot of doors in my opinion...including my current fav - the m&p9 fullsize...or even the G19 |
| yankeejib |
Posted - 07/05/2012 : 21:45:45
The only reason I carry 40 over 9 because the gun fits my hand better, and I shoot it better. G23 is hard to beat. |
| Waffenmeister |
Posted - 07/05/2012 : 21:09:53
You could just go all they way up to .45 ACP maybe... I'm sure if you do that, you won't want to go back!  |
