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AzAKguy
Senior Member
1034 Posts |
 Posted - 10/31/2009 : 00:47:59
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I was in a gun shop today and enquired about the availability of small pistol primers. the guy behind the counter responded that they were out of small pistol primer but had small rifle primers. He asked me what calibers I was reloading for and I told him 9 x 19 and 40 S&W. He said it would be fine to use the small rifle primers for 9X19 with no alteration to the load (I load 9 to minor, about 130 power factor),. He went on to say that for 40 S&W to use small rifle primers , he suggested reducing the powder charge by about 5%. I relaod my 40 S&W to minor also, a little hotter than my 9's at about 135 to 140 power factor.
Until I could do some reseach on the viability of this substitution I passed on taking the small rifle primers.
Has anyone heard of using small pistol primers in place of large pistol primers? If you have done this, what has your expereince been?
AzAKguy
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lwknight
Senior Member
USA
1290 Posts |
Posted - 10/31/2009 : 05:00:37
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In response to your question: I would say don't do it. My reasoning is that a primer with more flame will likely jump start the bullet before the powder burn catches up to it. When the capacity is increased , it may cause a secondary detonation and the bullet may be stalled when it happens. That could be bad.
Now, will you explain to me about this power factor scale I have heard about a few times lately.
What is loading to minor? vs what? what does a power factor of 140 relate to? |
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AzAKguy
Senior Member
1034 Posts |
Posted - 10/31/2009 : 11:28:08
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lwknight
Thank you for your input. I will heed your words and advice unless I receive substantial information to the contrary with data to back it up from someone else. In terms of all things related to firearms, I error on the side of caution, especially with reloading and that is why I did not walk out of this gun shop with small rifle primers. thank you.
Power factor is a pretty simple way of stating a loads power. It is used in IDPA and other pistol shooting competition to define minimum load power to prevent people ("gamers" - bad name to be called) who want to win more than they want to use the sport as simulated tactical training as it is supposed to be and therefore "load light to get low recoil rounds so that they can shoot faster and reduce their "split time" or time between shots.
Definition cut and pasted from the IDPA.com on line rule book page 28 (link provided below)
"Calculate power floor by multiplying the bullet weight by the
muzzle velocity. You will need a chronograph to verify muzzle
velocity".
For my 45 acp rounds, which I shoot in my 1911s in a class called "Custom Defense Pistol" or CDP, which requires that your rounds have a power factor of 165 (actually 165,000 but everyone knocks off the last 3 zeros).
I shoot a 230 round lead round nose bullet with 4.0 G of Bullseye which chrono in the range of 725 to 740 fps thru a 5 inch match grade barrel so:
725 x 230 = 166 power factor
740 X 230 = 170 power factor
which puts me just over the minimum power floor of 165. This load is fine for local club matches but if I were to go to nationals I might push up to 4.1 or 4.2 G load to get my power factor up further above 165 min in case I was required to "prove my load" and chrono my gun /load at the match.
In IDPA Stock Service Pistol and Enhanced Service Pistol power floor or minimum power factor is 125 (or 125,000)
All factory ammo that I have chrono'ed exceeds the minimum power floor in IDPA.
http://www.idpa.com/Documents/IDPARuleBook2005.pdf
page 28
Power factor is a nice short hand way of state load power.
On a side note for those interested in IDPA, which is a GREAT shooting activity, gaming also includes not just "cheating on loads", but also any type of shooting that is used to give one a better score over observation of tactical considerations. "Gaming" can include things like firing an extra round at a target (example 3 rounds to a targets chest and 1 to the head rather than the stage described minimum on that target of two to the chest and one to the head) to set yourself up for an more advantageous reload time and place in the stage of fire. The most egregious form of gaming other than cheating on loads (to me any way) is to modify ones gun in a way that it would make it unpractical for carry. IDPA is supposed to be shot with carry guns to improve ones tactical skills. An example of such gun mods would include tuning your trigger down to 1.5 pounds (Hey Mike, you reading this!!!!) as not many people would want to carry a gun that had a 1.5 pound trigger but a 1.5 pound trigger will give you an advantage in competition.
Thanks again for your input.
Az
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Punch
Junior Member
USA
419 Posts |
Posted - 10/31/2009 : 14:55:10
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| Small rife primers have been used in pistols by IPSC competitors for years. There should be no danger whatsoever. The small rifle primers have a bit thicker cup as far as I can tell. As with any change in components, you should reduce the load and work up just to be safe. |
Those who beat their swords into plows will plow for those who do not. |
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lwknight
Senior Member
USA
1290 Posts |
Posted - 10/31/2009 : 16:14:25
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if we are talking a 38 spl with 5 grains run of mill powder then I say small rifle primers will not matter because of the larger case capacity and left over free space. To get a full 9mm load you pretty much fill the void and the small capacity will allow the primer to start the bullet.
I know that with faster powders and light loads this may not be an issue as much as with the slower powders and heavir loads.
I am a wildcat by nature and often push the limits just to see. In this case I advise extreme caution. |
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lwknight
Senior Member
USA
1290 Posts |
Posted - 10/31/2009 : 16:25:56
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If I understand the power factor rating correctly, it can be toyed with. If you double bullet weight you exactly porportionately in crease energy. However doubling the velocity will quadruple the energy.
You can use heavier bullets to calculate a higher power factor without raising energy level as much as you would to increase velocity to make the factor qualify which would be higher energy(more recoil) with the same factor munber. Also another trick is to use a powder that has the least weight for a given job charge. Less powder to burn means less jet effect in the recoil. The jet effect is not much of a deal in pistols as it is in a high power rifle.
I found that increasing the load to stabalize the velocity spread gave higher recoil without higher velocity. Switching to a magnum primer and using less powder lowered the recoil and kept the same velocity and it is more stable. |
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lwknight
Senior Member
USA
1290 Posts |
Posted - 10/31/2009 : 16:34:49
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I plan to do some testing with small rife primers in my 9mm loads in the future. I imagine that there will be a point in working up the load that there will be a radical area and eventually the sweet spot.
I may have to try different powders and bullet weights as well.
I usually choose powders that are the most forgiving and universal to experiment with. I have found out that even with the same powder charge, seating the bullet to leave 10 percent free space compared to leaving 2-3 percent space makes a huge difference in some loads.
So many varibles makes my head hurt.. LOL |
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JNic
Starting Member
USA
28 Posts |
Posted - 10/31/2009 : 16:39:08
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| I would not use the rifle primers. Once I accidently used rifle primers in a 44mag reload. Every so often those reloads simply would not fire. Although the 44 uses the large primers, I've learned my lesson. |
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lwknight
Senior Member
USA
1290 Posts |
Posted - 10/31/2009 : 16:51:42
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| Im a sucker for trying radical ideas. I think thats how progress and innovasion happens. |
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Punch
Junior Member
USA
419 Posts |
Posted - 11/01/2009 : 11:10:54
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| JNic - Not firing is the usual mishap with using rifle primers in a pistol. The cups on a rifle primer are thicker, so it is not unusual for a pistol with a light mainspring to fail to ignite one on the first try. Also, I would worry more about the large rifle primer in a pistol (for the reasons lwknight mentions) than I do the small rifle. Small rifle primers are often used in the 9mm and .38 Super by the IPSC crowd. I don't use them because I have more than enough small pistol primers to use. But if I were in a pinch, I would not hesitate to use a small rifle primer. I should note that the converse to this is not true. You should really NEVER use a pistol primer in a rifle cartridge unless your are using "gallery" type loads in smaller cases. Even then, why bother if you have the correct primer to use in the first place. BTW - I seldom use fast powders or ball powder. 90% of my pistol loading is done with slow burning flake powders such as SR-4756 (my favorite), Hi-Skor 800X, and Unique, and this is what most of my experimentation is based on. If you are using fast powders (Tite Group, Bullseye, 231) or heavy charges of ball powder (HS-6, HS-7 and the like), I would stick with the pistol powders. I also don't like to experiment with radical primer changes with full charges of 2400 and Blue Dot. So, again, if you are using sane loads in a 9mm or .40 S&W, you should be OK with standard small rifle primers in a pinch. Also, regarding the use of rifle primers by the IPSC crowd: my guess is that they do not use them due to flame length or any chemical reason, but because their loads are so darn over pressure (some .38 Super loads approaching 50,000 cup) that they need a primer that will not blow out on them, hence the heavier rifle primer. |
Those who beat their swords into plows will plow for those who do not. |
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markshere2
Starting Member
USA
2 Posts |
Posted - 11/01/2009 : 18:50:12
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I have used small rifle primers in my 9mm 38 Special and 357 pistols many times with zero issues.
I started with a 10% reduction in load and worked my way up.
Your mileage may vary.
This advice is worth what you paid for it.
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Gun_Enthusiast
Junior Member
USA
438 Posts |
Posted - 11/03/2009 : 09:42:30
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| Seems it would probably just be easier to find someone who has small pistol primers and just trade... :) |
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lwknight
Senior Member
USA
1290 Posts |
Posted - 11/03/2009 : 12:27:57
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| +1 on that. Small rifle primers are harder to get than small pistol. You might trade 1 for 2 even. |
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Norton1
Starting Member
USA
13 Posts |
Posted - 11/04/2009 : 19:11:07
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I use small rifle magnum primers in all my handgun loads. 9mm, 45 ACP, 38 Spl, and they work fine. I used to have the load data and chronograph results but the site I posted those on is the one who banned me - so it's not available now. I'll look in my data book to see if it is still around. If so I'll post the data. I had zero difference in what the bullets did with standards vs magnums and the same powder loads.
Even during the hard times when primers were scarce as hen's teeth I could still get small rifle magnums for $23-24 a K. Made sense to me to use them. The sub gunners use them exclusively as the majority of subgun ammo is 9mm and 45. |
Steve Neff
God bless ya
USMC 62-70 |
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pinkhamr
Advanced Member
USA
5245 Posts |
Posted - 11/05/2009 : 01:03:40
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Why not just try the small pistol magnum primers? Ron uses them on all pistols these days (I think) .... JMO
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"Gun Control Is Being Able To Hit Your Target"
A 61 year old Retired U S Air Force Master Sergeant who's wife is also a Retired USAF Master Sergeant, and I have been a Life Member of the NRA since 1993. Also a Life Member of the NCOA and the VFW.
"A Veteran - whether active duty, retired, national guard or reserve - is someone who, at one point in their life, signed a blank check made payable to "The United States of America", for an amount of "up to and including my life." That is Honor, and there are way too many people in this country who no longer understand it. -- Author Unknown" |
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Norton1
Starting Member
USA
13 Posts |
Posted - 11/05/2009 : 08:21:38
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| pinkhamr - I have used those also. I measured the cup thickness on various primers, rifle and pistol, and could not find enough difference to mean anything. So I think it is more of a marketing ploy than anything else. .0175 is what they say and for the most part that's what they all measure. I've just had great success with them - and the price is right!! |
Steve Neff
God bless ya
USMC 62-70 |
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mineralman55
Starting Member
3 Posts |
Posted - 02/24/2010 : 06:54:24
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| As one who actually did this recently, I would say it is "safe", but don't do it. I accidentally grabbed some CCI small rifle primers and put them into light .357 loads (158 LSWC, 5 grains of Red Dot) in my S&W revolver. Over 50% no fires on double action. All fired on single action fire. The small rifle primers are harder than the small pistol primers and caused the no-fires. There was no sign of flattening or over pressure, but I would not do it again. |
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ridurall
Advanced Member
USA
5269 Posts |
Posted - 02/24/2010 : 10:36:40
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I quit purchasing any non-magnum primer. I just worked up the loads and keep records accordingly. Why have so many different primers when I can get by with magnum small and large rifle, Magnum Large and Small pistol and CCI# 35 50 BMG primers.
Makes things much easier.
Ron |
I'm Ron & I'm carrying Kimber Ultra Carry II In a Crossbreed IWB holster. NRA Life member since 1983.
"The thing that separates the American Christian from every other person on earth is the fact that he would rather die on his feet, than live on his knees!" George Washington
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AA BEAR
New Member
USA
83 Posts |
Posted - 05/29/2010 : 13:11:17
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| NO NO I would not load a hand gun with small rifle primers!!! |
A man that loves guns Big & Small & Longe & Short. X NAVY 375 D. W. 357 D. W. Max S&W 460 454 C |
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PointFourFive
Starting Member
11 Posts |
Posted - 06/05/2010 : 14:06:57
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| My load for .40 S&W plinking rounds is 5.0 gr Titegroup, 165 gr JHP and Federal small rifle primers... Not a single issue, 500+ rounds and counting. Then again, it only takes one bad one... |
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scottg
Senior Member
USA
1093 Posts |
Posted - 06/05/2010 : 19:41:59
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| Small pistol and small rifle are the same, just the rifle is thicker cup. That is where you get the misfires from. We have heard of misfires, but no blowups. Rifles in general have more recoil and therefore need a thicker cup. Regulars and magnums are a different story. Magnum primers do have more punch and should be loaded accordingly. |
"The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government"
Thomas Jefferson
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lwknight
Senior Member
USA
1290 Posts |
Posted - 06/05/2010 : 23:39:54
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Well... close. Things change and evolve over time but , nomenclaturely speaking:
Magnum primers have a longer duration of burn because most magnum loads use slower and harder to light powder. Most preferrable magnum use powders have coatings to help keep an even and controllable burn rate at the higher chamber pressures. Therefore it is common for magnum primers to have a little tougher cup so the primer is likely to blow out into the firing pin well.
The above is general terms. Some manufacturers make tougher primers than others and some use the same cup for both.
Small rifle primers have to tolerate higher chamber pressures so they have a lot tougher cups. EG: The 454 Casull had to be designed to use small rifle primers because large pistol primers were blowing out.
I can't find my chart but as I recall , small rifle primers have a bit more fire than small pistol primers. When you load medium pressure loads with a realitively fast powder , it will not matter enough to detect what primer you use.
Some people are just ultra cautious and never vary from " THU BOOOOK " whick by the way required a lot of experimenting to write. Then its lawyered down with a lot of room for error by either dummies or wildcatters, take your pick.
If you use a small case like for example 9mm loaded hot and switch to rifle primers , bad things could happen if your loads are not adjusted accordingly. |
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AA BEAR
New Member
USA
83 Posts |
Posted - 06/13/2010 : 20:28:18
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quote:
Originally posted by AzAKguy
I was in a gun shop today and enquired about the availability of small pistol primers. the guy behind the counter responded that they were out of small pistol primer but had small rifle primers. He asked me what calibers I was reloading for and I told him 9 x 19 and 40 S&W. He said it would be fine to use the small rifle primers for 9X19 with no alteration to the load (I load 9 to minor, about 130 power factor),. He went on to say that for 40 S&W to use small rifle primers , he suggested reducing the powder charge by about 5%. I relaod my 40 S&W to minor also, a little hotter than my 9's at about 135 to 140 power factor.
Until I could do some reseach on the viability of this substitution I passed on taking the small rifle primers.
Has anyone heard of using small pistol primers in place of large pistol primers? If you have done this, what has your expereince been?
AzAKguy
The large will not fit the small or the small will not fit the large!!
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A man that loves guns Big & Small & Longe & Short. X NAVY 375 D. W. 357 D. W. Max S&W 460 454 C |
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Using small rifle primers in place of small pistol
