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Ohio9
Advanced Member
USA
2711 Posts |
 Posted - 05/06/2012 : 14:06:31
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Well I've finally got myself a snubby. I've never been a big fan of revolvers, but I like the idea of a system which ensures 5 or 6 shots every time with minimal maintainance involved.
I wanted to get a real classic like a Smith and Wesson 36 or Colt Detective Special, but everywhere I looked the price was too high, so I ended up settling for a Charter Arms undercover that I found on gunbroker.com for under 200 dollars. The final price was about 240 when the shipping and FFL transfer fee was added.
Range results were less than stellar. The thing works perfectly, but has a massive kick for a mere .38. My hands were feeling numb after about 50 rounds, and rapid fire sends my shots all over the place. Once again, the heavy double-action trigger pull proves to be the revolver's greatest weakness.
Still, at a lower rate of fire is was dead-eye accurate up to 10-15 yards. One-handed shooting did not significantly reduce accuracy. I was still getting good hits. Also I was hitting 5 for 5 shooting from the waist from distances of up to 5 yards.
What really dissapointed me was reloading. This is not a gun I ever want to reload in any combat situation. Every time I emptied the cylinder, one to three casings kept getting stuck, even with the use of the extraction rod. I had to pluck them out with my fingers one by one. Most revolvers I've used don't even need the extraction rod. Usually gravity gets the casings out just fine. In this case, reloading took forever, even with a speedloader.
However, this was right after I picked up the gun and it was rather dirty. Perhaps there was carbon build up in the chambers. I gave a good cleaning a home and perhaps it will do better next time.
In the end, for about 240 bucks, I got a gun that goes bang every time I pull the trigger and constantly hits the target 5 times from around 10 yards. But that's about it. Reloading is utter crap and the gun kicks surprisingly hard. Once again, the trigger is something I really don't like. I'm wondering if a snubby with a good trigger exists.
Perhaps some day I'll trade up for a more trusted model such as an S&W 36 or Detective Special. I suppose I got my money's worth, but still I left the range wanting more. |
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montanapatriot
Advanced Member
USA
3812 Posts |
Posted - 05/06/2012 : 16:50:41
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I'll find you a link on how to handle reloads with a snubby.
The thing to remember this is a "belly gun". Treat it and your training as such. Short range, your targets should be at 3, 5, 10, 20, 30 ft.
Read "No Second Place Winner" by Bill Jordan and practice what he preaches about a wheel gun.
That trigger may be simple to improve, do some searching for fixes on the net.
My Smith 631 feels like a .22, the recoil is negligible and that's with very small frame size Conconlo Alves wood grips. I hate the rubber it came with
it hold my shirt and prints like a bitch. Word to the wise. |
“A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity”
Sigmund Freud |
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Ohio9
Advanced Member
USA
2711 Posts |
Posted - 05/06/2012 : 17:40:14
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quote:
Originally posted by montanapatriot
I'll find you a link on how to handle reloads with a snubby.
The thing to remember this is a "belly gun". Treat it and your training as such. Short range, your targets should be at 3, 5, 10, 20, 30 ft.
Read "No Second Place Winner" by Bill Jordan and practice what he preaches about a wheel gun.
That trigger may be simple to improve, do some searching for fixes on the net.
My Smith 631 feels like a .22, the recoil is negligible and that's with very small frame size Conconlo Alves wood grips. I hate the rubber it came with
it hold my shirt and prints like a bitch. Word to the wise.
I know the technique for reloading a revolver. The problem with the Charter Arms Undercover (or at least the one I have) is that the casings keep getting stuck in the chambers and have to be pulled out manually.
I know it's a short range gun, or "get off me gun", as some people call it, but it's a bit dissapointing how widely my shots are scattered by rapid fire, at any range. In a real close range shooting situation, it's almost assured you will to using rapid fire.
I'm not sure about trigger jobs. You really have to trust the armorer on this, and any mistake could cause major problems. Also, I can just imagine being in court after a defensive shooting while some hot shot lawyer uses my modification as "evidence" of my intent to kill by making the gun "more deadly". It's why I'm reluctant to change anything from factory specifications.
The revolver I have came with wooden grips, not rubber. They feel good, but are kind of bulky for a revolver this small. The only type of CCW I plan on using this gun for is pocket carry and fanny pack cary (when I'm working out) |
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Tye
Junior Member
403 Posts |
Posted - 05/06/2012 : 19:10:27
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Sounds like it still could be working perfectly.
Are you holding the cylinder upside down before "whacking" the extraction rod? The shorter the barrel the shorter the rod! Use some authority!
Personally, I like the hammer with a single action option for a better trigger on paper; saving the DA mode for SHTF close up scenario. In such an event, having to conciously squeeze the trigger hard is a good thing.
I don't know how old your Charter is, but I have confidence in their relatively new ones. That being said, Charter will still service the older "junk". Nothing that you said indicates that you have junk, however. Regarding recoil, try a different round, wrap around grips. . . maybe the system will grow to be "comforting".
BR, |
Tye |
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hkguy
Advanced Member
USA
2064 Posts |
Posted - 05/06/2012 : 19:34:05
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I just bought a second 642 for my wife to carry because we like them that much. I just got a $25 dollar apex drop in spring kit that takes the trigger pull down from 12 lbs to 9lbs.
Keep in mind that these are not range guns by any stretch of the imagination, after about 35 rounds down range my hands are on their way to getting fatigued and i dont shoot much past 7 yards with this gun either. my standard of accuracy is keeping all 5 shots in a 8 in circle during rapid fire at 7 yards.
as far as extracting spent cases, the ejector rod is much shorter than the case so you need a pretty good whack on it to get them to all fly out, hell even on my GP100 the ejector rod is shorter than a spent .38 spl case and requires a good whack to get them all out.
i would recommend you only practice shooting it DA so that you learn the trigger and can over come the long heavy pull. |
God created all men....
... Sam Colt made them equal |
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Ohio9
Advanced Member
USA
2711 Posts |
Posted - 05/06/2012 : 19:38:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Tye
Sounds like it still could be working perfectly.
Are you holding the cylinder upside down before "whacking" the extraction rod? The shorter the barrel the shorter the rod! Use some authority!
Personally, I like the hammer with a single action option for a better trigger on paper; saving the DA mode for SHTF close up scenario. In such an event, having to conciously squeeze the trigger hard is a good thing.
I don't know how old your Charter is, but I have confidence in their relatively new ones. That being said, Charter will still service the older "junk". Nothing that you said indicates that you have junk, however. Regarding recoil, try a different round, wrap around grips. . . maybe the system will grow to be "comforting".
BR,
In regard to your first question, yes I'm holding the cylinder upside down. And I'm not just whacking the extractor. Sometimes I would even hold it down and try to shake the rounds out, but there was always at least one that wouldn't budge and would have to be pulled.
The "SHTF close up scenario" is pretty much what almost every self-defense situation involving a firearm is going to be, so you've got to go on the assumption that using DA mode is what you will be doing in the real world. The SA mode sure is convenient, but for most real world cases, it's not practical. My "trigger on paper" is the same as it would be if it were "trigger on person".
I don't know how old my CA revolver is, since I bought it used from a pawn shop, but I don't believe it's a junk gun. I just think heavy recoil is a constant issue with snub-nosed revolvers. I've tried Smith and Wesson air weights before and had the same problems
quote:
Originally posted by hkguy
Keep in mind that these are not range guns by any stretch of the imagination, after about 35 rounds down range my hands are on their way to getting fatigued and i dont shoot much past 7 yards with this gun either. my standard of accuracy is keeping all 5 shots in a 8 in
I don't like the saying that a gun "is not a range gun". Any gun you plan to carry for self defense is a range gun, because it's a gun you need to be practicing with on the range as much as possible. As such, the inability to shoot a lot of rounds with it consecutively is an issue.
quote:
Originally posted by hkguy
as far as extracting spent cases, the ejector rod is much shorter than the case so you need a pretty good whack on it to get them to all fly out, hell even on my GP100 the ejector rod is shorter than a spent .38 spl case and requires a good whack to get them all out.
You don't seem to understand. In my case, any amount of extractor rod use wasn't enough. Some of the casings were getting completely stuck and would not come out with extractor use alone. I had to pull them out with my fingers
quote:
Originally posted by hkguy
i would recommend you only practice shooting it DA so that you learn the trigger and can over come the long heavy pull.
That I do agree with. Like it or not, the DA mode is what I'll most likely be using in real world situations, so that's how it must be on the range.
It's just a shame I can't seem to find such a revolver with a trigger pull that I like. I consider that the main disadvantage for revolvers in the revolver vs autoloader debate. It's even more of an issue than capacity differences. |
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hkguy
Advanced Member
USA
2064 Posts |
Posted - 05/06/2012 : 20:09:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Ohio9
quote:
Originally posted by Tye
Sounds like it still could be working perfectly.
Are you holding the cylinder upside down before "whacking" the extraction rod? The shorter the barrel the shorter the rod! Use some authority!
Personally, I like the hammer with a single action option for a better trigger on paper; saving the DA mode for SHTF close up scenario. In such an event, having to conciously squeeze the trigger hard is a good thing.
I don't know how old your Charter is, but I have confidence in their relatively new ones. That being said, Charter will still service the older "junk". Nothing that you said indicates that you have junk, however. Regarding recoil, try a different round, wrap around grips. . . maybe the system will grow to be "comforting".
BR,
In regard to your first question, yes I'm holding the cylinder upside down. And I'm not just whacking the extractor. Sometimes I would even hold it down and try to shake the rounds out, but there was always at least one that wouldn't budge and would have to be pulled.
The "SHTF close up scenario" is pretty much what almost every self-defense situation involving a firearm is going to be, so you've got to go on the assumption that using DA mode is what you will be doing in the real world. The SA mode sure is convenient, but for most real world cases, it's not practical. My "trigger on paper" is the same as it would be if it were "trigger on person".
I don't know how old my CA revolver is, since I bought it used from a pawn shop, but I don't believe it's a junk gun. I just think heavy recoil is a constant issue with snub-nosed revolvers. I've tried Smith and Wesson air weights before and had the same problems
quote:
Originally posted by hkguy
Keep in mind that these are not range guns by any stretch of the imagination, after about 35 rounds down range my hands are on their way to getting fatigued and i dont shoot much past 7 yards with this gun either. my standard of accuracy is keeping all 5 shots in a 8 in
I don't like the saying that a gun "is not a range gun". Any gun you plan to carry for self defense is a range gun, because it's a gun you need to be practicing with on the range as much as possible. As such, the inability to shoot a lot of rounds with it consecutively is an issue.
what i mean by this is, these types of guns in general are not the kind your going to shoot 100+ rounds out of in a single range session. practice is still essential and i try to shoot 50 or so rounds a month through mine to stay fresh with sight picture and trigger control. I hope this clears up my stance on these guns.
quote:
Originally posted by hkguy
as far as extracting spent cases, the ejector rod is much shorter than the case so you need a pretty good whack on it to get them to all fly out, hell even on my GP100 the ejector rod is shorter than a spent .38 spl case and requires a good whack to get them all out.
You don't seem to understand. In my case, any amount of extractor rod use wasn't enough. Some of the casings were getting completely stuck and would not come out with extractor use alone. I had to pull them out with my fingers
I understand what your saying. if you do not forcefully hit the ejector rod and merely push it in, the ejector will not lift the cases out of the cylinder, the same is true on my GP100 which has a much longer ejector rod, you have to hit it with force to get the cases to eject. DO NOT rely on gravity to eject the cases for you. Now if you are hitting the ejector rod forcefully and the cases are still sticking, i am not sure what to tell you, i know i do not have this problem with the 3 S&W 642's i have had or the GP100, i only have problems with cases "sticking" when i do not hit the ejector rod forcefully enough.
quote:
Originally posted by hkguy
i would recommend you only practice shooting it DA so that you learn the trigger and can over come the long heavy pull.
That I do agree with. Like it or not, the DA mode is what I'll most likely be using in real world situations, so that's how it must be on the range.
It's just a shame I can't seem to find such a revolver with a trigger pull that I like. I consider that the main disadvantage for revolvers in the revolver vs autoloader debate. It's even more of an issue than capacity differences.
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God created all men....
... Sam Colt made them equal |
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Tye
Junior Member
403 Posts |
Posted - 05/07/2012 : 07:24:16
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Brush/Clean the cylinder chambers? Then slightly oil?
Aluminum cased ammo?
Brush out, clean and slightly oil the chambers once again. They could be covered with imperceptible corrosion from over the years thus causing even greater friction to the case walls when fire-expanded. Do fresh rounds slide into the cylinder easily?
BR, |
Tye |
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Ohio9
Advanced Member
USA
2711 Posts |
Posted - 05/07/2012 : 16:46:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Tye
Do fresh rounds slide into the cylinder easily?
Yeah fresh rounds go in and out just fine. I gave it a thorough cleaning as soon as I got back from the range and I'm hoping that will help resolve this issue. I'll keep in mind the advice having to whack the extractor really hard as well. |
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Chris_T
Moderator
USA
2868 Posts |
Posted - 05/07/2012 : 18:09:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Ohio9
I don't like the saying that a gun "is not a range gun". Any gun you plan to carry for self defense is a range gun, because it's a gun you need to be practicing with on the range as much as possible. As such, the inability to shoot a lot of rounds with it consecutively is an issue.
frequency over quantity. I shoot min one cyl out of my 642 every range trip. Max 15 rounds fatigue will build bad habits. I'd rather shoot fewer rounds more frequently than shoot more rounds poorly less frequently. |
This post may contain opinions that are not intended to be popular. 
"Those who sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither" - Benjamin Franklin. |
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Chup
Junior Member
USA
136 Posts |
Posted - 05/08/2012 : 08:34:16
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| You Just don't pick up a Snub and shoot it well. It takes some practice. Trigger control, grip, and sight alignment have to be practiced and experimented with. Don't get discouraged. Dry Fire practice is your best friend. Dry Firing will help you with pulling the trigger and keeping the sights steady. Pic a target and watch your front sight while pulling the trigger. After a bit you will be able to keep it from moving. This will also smooth your Snubs action. When I get a revolver I Dry Fire it at least 2000 times before I shoot it. This smooths the action and makes them easier to shoot. The ammo you use can affect recoil a lot. I would start with 125 or 130 grain 38 Special. If the grips still sting you may need a Rubber grip. In a self defense situation you probably won't feel it. After a while you can try out your Carry Load and pick what is accurate for you and your gun. I hope I didn't offend you. I'm just trying to help. Snubs are my favorite Carry guns. I carry Two 357s at all times and practice with them as often as possible. "I AM NO PRO", just an old Wheel Gun Guy trying to help. Good Luck and make sure your gun is empty before Dry Fire practice. |
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gunslinger
Advanced Member
USA
2072 Posts |
Posted - 05/18/2012 : 10:39:11
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| My Taurus M-85 has always functioned perfectly, never a stuck cartridge. I don't wack the ejector rod, but do push it hard. Also very accurate out to 10 yards. For $325, one of the best buys I've made. I like the all stainless weight when shooting +P Gold Dot 135g. Really handles the recoil with their 'Ribber' grips. Perfect gun to drop in a jacket pocket when I don't need a 1911 or HP for where I'm going. I may be giving it to my daughter, as she has her CCW now. If so, I'd replace it with a Tarus .357, but still carry the Speer short barrel rounds. Outstanding ballistics. |
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5lima30ret@gmail.com
Junior Member
USA
260 Posts |
Posted - 05/24/2012 : 06:37:24
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| Back 25(+-) years ago when I was a rookie Police Officer I bought a Charter Arms Off-Duty. I had the same problems as well as very poor accuracy. I got rid of it pretty quick and picked up a J- frame Mod 36 from another retiring Officer. Much better gun IMHO. That being said snub-nosed wheel guns can be difficult to shoot and require practice, practice, practice... |
Retired Police Lieutenant, Retired USAF Reserve, Glock Armorer "I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me." Phil 4:13 |
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1813Anschutz
Advanced Member
USA
2291 Posts |
Posted - 05/24/2012 : 08:41:52
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I would make sure that the chambers of the cylinder are well polished....have a professional gunsmith do this if possible. If one is not available, get some crocus cloth and chuck up a cleaning rod into a drill set on it's slowest speed and then gently polish.
If your chambers are already oversize your casings are expanding to fit the chamber and make it difficult to extract even with a brisk stroke to the extractor rod.
Ultimately, keep your eye open for a good used J frame Smith.
Randy
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"The more I shoot,the LUCKIER I seem to get!" |
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hkguy
Advanced Member
USA
2064 Posts |
Posted - 05/24/2012 : 09:06:44
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quote:
Originally posted by 1813Anschutz
I would make sure that the chambers of the cylinder are well polished....have a professional gunsmith do this if possible. If one is not available, get some crocus cloth and chuck up a cleaning rod into a drill set on it's slowest speed and then gently polish.
If your chambers are already oversize your casings are expanding to fit the chamber and make it difficult to extract even with a brisk stroke to the extractor rod.
Ultimately, keep your eye open for a good used J frame Smith.
Randy
lately i have seen several j-frames in my area for 300-325 |
God created all men....
... Sam Colt made them equal |
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Ohio9
Advanced Member
USA
2711 Posts |
Posted - 05/24/2012 : 09:14:15
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quote:
Originally posted by 5lima30ret@gmail.com
Back 25(+-) years ago when I was a rookie Police Officer I bought a Charter Arms Off-Duty. I had the same problems as well as very poor accuracy. I got rid of it pretty quick and picked up a J- frame Mod 36 from another retiring Officer. Much better gun IMHO. That being said snub-nosed wheel guns can be difficult to shoot and require practice, practice, practice...
Yeah I wanted a 36 myself, but the price is always too high. I don't feel like paying 350-500 for an ancient snubby. I couldn't resist the charter arms at a mere 240, but now I'm thinking I'll trade it in somewhere to make the 36 more affordable |
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hogdoc357
Starting Member
USA
14 Posts |
Posted - 05/29/2012 : 14:44:42
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| Consider the Ruger LCR with a Crimson Trace Laser. Concealable, reliable, and plenty of firepower for personal self-defense. |
hogdoc357 |
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Tigershack
Junior Member
329 Posts |
Posted - 05/29/2012 : 22:03:16
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| I second the LCR. I originally turned up my nose at this polymer shrouded hammer thing (I got a Smith 60). But now I see its value and functionality as a carry piece. Ruger has done their homework and has made the .357 version actually a bit comfy for a snub nose cannon. The .38sp version should make a great BUG as well. |
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Thoughts on my first snub-nose revolver
