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graceandtruth
Average Member
747 Posts |
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JBARRETT
Average Member
USA
979 Posts |
 Posted - 07/28/2012 : 14:00:38
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| Yep I hated the M9. |
USN Veteran "Hooya"
"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it or their revolutionary right to dismember it or overthrow it."
Abraham Lincoln, 4 April 1861
"If there must be trouble, let it be in my day, that my child may have peace."~ Thomas Paine
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robalo23
Junior Member
USA
266 Posts |
Posted - 07/28/2012 : 16:06:07
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| Semper Fi |
The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms, is as a last resort to protect themselves against tyranny in its government. Thomas Jefferson
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dsims
Senior Member
USA
1191 Posts |
Posted - 07/28/2012 : 18:10:51
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| Right on! It only took them 25 plus years to get it right AGAIN. I realize it's a sidearm and not a primary arm, but I'm hopeful the other branches follow suit. |
It's better to have a gun on you and not need one, than to need one and not have one on you! |
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Nathan
Big Sky Guy
USA
21543 Posts |
Posted - 07/28/2012 : 19:31:19
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ok....you all know i love the 1911...but this was a dumb move...especially considering how many idiot-proof guns are available today. yes the 1911 served with honor for nearly a century, but that doesnt make it the best choice for a combat weapon thats likely to be neglected in adverse conditions.
while i fully support going with .45, the HK45 would have been the smarter choice....not to mention the glock .45s, the M&P, the XD, etc. for some reason they want second strike capability. |
Nathan In Montana, carrying a Gen4 Glock 19 loaded with Federal 147 grain +P JHPs carried in a Galco King Tuk thats worn on a Wilderness Instructor's belt.
NRA Certified Instructor, Rifle, Shotgun and Pistol
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Hawkeye308
Junior Member
USA
106 Posts |
Posted - 07/28/2012 : 21:29:09
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Since we've got two threads of the same topic, I'm just going to copy and paste what I said in the other thread.
The Marine Corps is not moving back to the 1911, only MARSOC will use these 1911s. The same guys who have been running the MEU(SOC) pistol, which is essentially a re-tooled and refurbished Govt. 1911. So when building the MEU(SOC) becomes cost-prohibitive, MARSOC has two options: A) Buy a new handgun platform and retrain the operators on it, or B) Buy a modernized 1911 model. Whatever your opinion on service handguns is, the Colt railed 1911 certainly meets MARSOC requirements to replace the MEU(SOC). |
NO LAW CAN PREVENT AN ACTION. If it were possible to outlaw actions, then there would be no crime.
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dsims
Senior Member
USA
1191 Posts |
Posted - 07/29/2012 : 08:52:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Nathan
while i fully support going with .45, the HK45 would have been the smarter choice....not to mention the glock .45s, the M&P, the XD, etc. for some reason they want second strike capability.
My guess would be cost. The military went with the Berretta over the SIG due to cost. Arming hundred of thousands of troops with HK's or SIG's (what I consider true war guns) would add up. There are other factors, "Made in the USA" entirely is right at the top. My GS has military contracts for black rifles and I can't say his are anyway superior to other manufacturers. I work with the government on a daily basis and there is a lot that goes on behind the scene when it comes to spending. I'm not talking bribes, lap dances, etc, those days are over.
The good news. this is not our troops primary weapon. The great news, the governement acknowledging the need for a more effective catridge and it's definately a step in the right direction! |
It's better to have a gun on you and not need one, than to need one and not have one on you! |
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graceandtruth
Average Member
747 Posts |
Posted - 07/29/2012 : 10:04:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Nathan
ok....you all know i love the 1911...but this was a dumb move...especially considering how many idiot-proof guns are available today. yes the 1911 served with honor for nearly a century, but that doesnt make it the best choice for a combat weapon thats likely to be neglected in adverse conditions.
while i fully support going with .45, the HK45 would have been the smarter choice....not to mention the glock .45s, the M&P, the XD, etc. for some reason they want second strike capability.
I fully agree. If nothing else than for capacity and simplicity. Prices differences are negligible at best, and in 99% of cases the polymer guns are going to be less expensive. |
-G&T
G23 |
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Will R.
Junior Member
USA
239 Posts |
Posted - 07/29/2012 : 14:36:09
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I found Larry Vickers article in Military Times on this subject pretty interesting, especially since he's a fan of the 1911 but also (with Ken Hackathorn) helped design the HK 45.
"If you’re about to surrender to the 100-year-old call of John Moses Browning, we’re here to help. You can probably count as many Model 1911 configurations as stars in the sky. So to make sense of all the choices, we enlisted a guy who knows his way around the 1911 like Darrell Waltrip knows his way around Daytona.
As the 1st Special Forces Operational Detachment-Delta’s primary firearms instructor, Larry Vickers worked in a place that put more than a million rounds a year through 1911s. He’s a founding member of the International Defensive Pistol Association and is a member of the American Pistolsmiths Guild. When he says he’s seen everything that can go wrong with a 1911, I believe him.
“Now, I shoot a Glock,” Vickers tells me. “Make sure you tell guys that the 1911 is a pain in the ass. If they don’t like messing around with the pistol and spending a grand to really get it tuned, then they should forget it.”
Modern pistol designs have made the 1911 obsolete in it’s role as a combat sidearm. It’s finicky and demands constant attention that a warfighter can’t afford to offer. But when it’s tuned and running well, it’s the most accurate pistol out there.
Warnings aside, the pistol’s appeal is strong and romantic. Picking up the pistol feels like shaking hands with John Wayne. It shoots man-sized rounds and, when tuned, it shoots a quarter-sized group at 50 yards.
But the 1911 is not a plug-and-play platform. Even a $2,000 semi-custom 1911 likely will need a pricey trip to a gunsmith for tweaking. Changing out all but the simplest parts will demand expert hand filing and fitting.
“I’ve had guys sell their pistols after taking my 1911 armoring class because they realized the gun just wasn’t for them,” Vickers says."
Link: http://militarytimes.com/blogs/gearscout/2011/06/08/read-this-before-you-buy-your-first-1911/ |
"Do your duty in all things. You cannot do more, you should never wish to do less".
General Robert E. Lee
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plaidad
Junior Member
159 Posts |
Posted - 07/29/2012 : 16:42:59
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I don't understand all the talk about 1911's being finicky, needing lots of work to be reliable, or being an "expert's gun". This was the standard sidearm of the US military for almost 70 years. Thousands of non-shooter recruits received minimal training with them and went on to successfully use them. As far as being finicky, it was built to shoot ball ammo, which it does well. I think a lot of the problems stem from tightly fitted guns. The standard GI pistol didn't operate "like a bank vault", some of them rattled pretty easily. Hopefully, Colt will supply pistols with enough tolerance to be reliable. Remember, these things are for close range use.
George |
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Nathan
Big Sky Guy
USA
21543 Posts |
Posted - 07/29/2012 : 17:55:45
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quote:
Originally posted by plaidad
I don't understand all the talk about 1911's being finicky, needing lots of work to be reliable, or being an "expert's gun".
seriously when you have people like me (a hardcore 1911 fanatic) telling you theyre finnicky you take notice...but when somebody like vickers is telling you the same thing its time to question what you believe to be true. for concealed carry or duty purposes the 1911 will serve you just fine...but ford a few rivers with one submerged and crawl through muck and mud with one in one hand and something like a glock or comparable in the other and youll see why we feel its not a wise choice for a combat weapon. they can be as reliable as any other weapon when cleaned and lubed, but the father you get from perfect conditions the more the weaknesses start to show. |
Nathan In Montana, carrying a Gen4 Glock 19 loaded with Federal 147 grain +P JHPs carried in a Galco King Tuk thats worn on a Wilderness Instructor's belt.
NRA Certified Instructor, Rifle, Shotgun and Pistol
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nmuskier01
Senior Member
USA
1845 Posts |
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Hawkeye308
Junior Member
USA
106 Posts |
Posted - 07/29/2012 : 21:11:59
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| It's not $5625 per unit. The contract in not just the gun itself. |
NO LAW CAN PREVENT AN ACTION. If it were possible to outlaw actions, then there would be no crime.
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Nathan
Big Sky Guy
USA
21543 Posts |
Posted - 07/29/2012 : 21:12:50
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quote:
Originally posted by nmuskier01
I wonder why DoD doesn't adopt the FNX?
i have the same question of the HK45. if theyre paying over $5000 for $1000 colts, it cant be due to cost. |
Nathan In Montana, carrying a Gen4 Glock 19 loaded with Federal 147 grain +P JHPs carried in a Galco King Tuk thats worn on a Wilderness Instructor's belt.
NRA Certified Instructor, Rifle, Shotgun and Pistol
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nmuskier01
Senior Member
USA
1845 Posts |
Posted - 07/29/2012 : 21:36:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Hawkeye308
It's not $5625 per unit. The contract in not just the gun itself.
That's what the Pentagon says about $800 toilet seats. |
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Hawkeye308
Junior Member
USA
106 Posts |
Posted - 07/29/2012 : 21:52:59
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| If you think the contract doesn't include parts and logistical support then that's fine. But the fact is that they are not paying $5625 per gun. |
NO LAW CAN PREVENT AN ACTION. If it were possible to outlaw actions, then there would be no crime.
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Who carries a 1911? THE MARINES!
