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Slayer of Paper
Junior Member

USA
488 Posts

Posted - 09/09/2008 :  18:38:03  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Hey guys,

I've lately been thinking about picking up a very small .22 for a back up gun to replace my Kel Tec P3AT. Nothing against the KT- they are still one of my favorite gun makers- I just wanted to consider a gun that was easier to shoot given such a small size, and greater capacity would be welcome too.

I'd like to find one that is at least as small as the .380, and if it were lighter, that would be even better. Any ideas would be appreciated. Note that I already have a Walther P22, and I love it- it's a great gun- but I'm looking for something smaller and lighter.

For Nathan: in your carry guide, you mention that you consider the .22 as adequate for a BUG, basically in the same class as the .380 (at least that's how I read it). I can easily see how that could be, as I've always heard plenty of stories about how a .22 proved quite deadly. I was just wondering- is that based on documented or personal testing? If so, I'd definitely be interested in seeing the data on it. Note that I'm not saying I doubt it at all, I'm seriously interested in seeing penetration and expansion data on the .22 (especially the minimag).

"If someone is so fearful that they are going to start using their weapons to protect their rights, it makes me very nervous that these people have weapons at all." ~Rep. Henry Waxman

"When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty." ~Thomas Jefferson

Geoff
Advanced Member

USA
5361 Posts

Posted - 09/09/2008 :  18:53:59  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
If you buy one buy a good one.

Taurus makes a good little 22

http://www.taurususa.com/products/product-details.cfm?id=80&category=Pistol

I would not carry anything less than this, how much is your life worth?

NRA Basic Pistol Instructor, Gun Collector, Hunter, Sportsman, and EDUCATED VOTER lol



A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State,the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed"




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mattinglyt
Watchdog

USA
12433 Posts

Posted - 09/09/2008 :  19:06:46  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
drop the 22 and get a 17HMR pocket pistol. Not only does it offer 2250 fps (out of a rifle barrel) as opposed to a 22LR's 1080 fps, but that is one damn cool looking bullet with the polymere tip.


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Presspass
Armed & Dangerous

USA
9057 Posts

Posted - 09/09/2008 :  19:40:30  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Lone voice in the wilderness: I love my baby guns that are .22. They conceal, they are lightweight, they are easy and FUN to shoot.
My favorite current toy is a S&W revolver, the 351PD...it is a seven shot revolver; but I have had a KT in the past that I liked too. Man, you could stick that puppy anywhere and no one knew you had it. It has a good little kick for my tiny hands, but that doesn't seem to be a problem for most guys.


You can't fix stupid, but you can slap the crap out of it.
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jeeper1
Junior Member

USA
327 Posts

Posted - 09/10/2008 :  10:57:10  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
You might want to consider the Phoenix Arms HP22. If I was to consider carrying it I would disable 2 of the 3 safeties to make it use able. Yes, I'm aware of the consequences of doing that. I just hate mag dis connectors that require putting the safety on to change mags and firing pin blockers that come on while shooting the thing.
The HP22 weighs 20.3 ounces empty vs. 9.1 ounces loaded for the P3at.

P3AT on HP22



I may not be completely sane, but at least I don't think I have the power to influence the weather
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pioneer
Super-Duper Member

USA
380 Posts

Posted - 09/10/2008 :  13:13:02  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Slayer of Paper

..... I've always heard plenty of stories about how a .22 proved quite deadly....

There is no argument, a .22 caliber bullet can be deadly. The trouble is, it may take a while for it to work. The whole idea of self defense is to stop the bad guy. A .22, .25, .32, or .380 is not a reliable person stopper. Sure, you can use them to poke holes in the enemy, and eventually they may bleed out. Maybe.

While there is no magic bullet or caliber of handgun, in most cases bigger is better. If you have to shoot, you want to stop the aggression of someone trying to hurt or kill you. Stop them, not necessarily kill them. Stop them, not simply hurt them.

I've personally investigated cases where the bad guy took a fatal heart shot, right in the X-ring, but they were still able to keep fighting. One was a guy, high on heroin, who lost his heart in the "explosion" of a police .357 magnum hollow point, and was still able to run, full speed, for over 100 yards. He was dead, no doubt, but it took him a while to go down. Another guy took a load of 00 buck in his chest, and kept on shooting. He died, but not instantly. Another guy, shot in the head point-blank with a .45 FMJ, walked into the emergency room with a severe headache.

In my opinion, I'd go with a minimum caliber of .38+P as a reliable, effective self defense round and be prepared to fire multiple shots. Shoot till the aggression stops. Even for your BUG.

I don't know these things because I read them in a book. My opinion and recommendation, your mileage may vary.




Sui Juris
Life Member, NRA / Member, SAF
US Navy Vet. (aviation) '65-'69
Retired Police Detective '71-'01
HR-218 Certified
U.S. Constitution (c)1791 All Rights Reserved
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ChuckS
Average Member

USA
857 Posts

Posted - 09/10/2008 :  14:11:07  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by newguy08

If you buy one buy a good one.

Taurus makes a good little 22

http://www.taurususa.com/products/product-details.cfm?id=80&category=Pistol

I would not carry anything less than this, how much is your life worth?



That is the model my wife has...gold highlights and rosewood handle.

Works well with minimag ammo but cheaper ammo gives it fits, especially the last shell.

ng08 do you have that pistol? If you do, what hoster do you have for it?


"People willing to trade their freedom for temporary security deserve neither and will lose both." Benjamin Franklin
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Geoff
Advanced Member

USA
5361 Posts

Posted - 09/10/2008 :  14:54:05  Show Profile  Reply with Quote


http://www.palehorseholsters.com/pocket.htm


I do actually and yeah mines a great shooter but some of the cheaper ammo does give it fits. I shoot mini mags through it and sometimes federal bulk ammo and it does ok but any other cheapo ammo messes it up about every 6 or 7 rounds.

The holster I have came from pale horse holsters, it is the " twin peaks leather pocket holster " and its a nice holster. I actually sprayed some of that rubber bedliner stuff on the back of it because when I would draw the gun out it would come out too. That fixed that problem and it works great.

I like it because it will hold both of my 22 mini guns and the p3at so it was well worth the cost for me.




oh and that is not my gun there that is a pic from the website.


NRA Basic Pistol Instructor, Gun Collector, Hunter, Sportsman, and EDUCATED VOTER lol



A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State,the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed"




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jwilli44
Junior Member

314 Posts

Posted - 09/10/2008 :  15:27:53  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
eek! I don't think I could carry a .22 as a backup gun. Mainly because of the storys of this round bouncing around and hitting what it shouldn't. It is just too much of a wild round and I have never been much of a gambling man myself.

but as they say.. to each his own

'Speak softly and carry a big stick; you will go far.'

"Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves."
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Geoff
Advanced Member

USA
5361 Posts

Posted - 09/10/2008 :  16:03:36  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
the smallest backup I USUALLY carry is a 380acp and my smallest sidearm is a 9mm

NRA Basic Pistol Instructor, Gun Collector, Hunter, Sportsman, and EDUCATED VOTER lol



A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State,the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed"




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Stoble
Junior Member

USA
298 Posts

Posted - 09/10/2008 :  17:15:06  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
For a BUG I would not carry below a 380 with FMJ. Smaller that this and it may not do what you intend for it to do in an emergency. The perp will usually take more punishment that us good guys. In my opinion you need something with more authority than a .22.
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Geoff
Advanced Member

USA
5361 Posts

Posted - 09/10/2008 :  18:08:23  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
yeah that is the same opinion that most of us have however it is what it is and some people carry 22's because that is what they have and some just prefer the caliber for one reason or another.

A 22 is better than a pocket knive and worse than a 50 caliber rifle but anything is better than nothing.

NRA Basic Pistol Instructor, Gun Collector, Hunter, Sportsman, and EDUCATED VOTER lol



A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State,the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed"




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Jacobite
Average Member

USA
544 Posts

Posted - 09/10/2008 :  18:26:40  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
While I will not argue it is best to plan for worst case scenarios I will argue they they are the norm. We all know that chances are we will never even need to draw our weapon as normal civilians. I think we can safely say that most perps will also give up if faced by an armed victim. There was just a case where an 80+ year old woman caught a dirt bag in her house and held a .22 revolver on him while she made him call the police. Granted if he was a real bad guy hopped up on drugs he may have beat her and used the gun on her. However had she not had the .22 this guy might have beat her. We never know. I am of the opinion that any dependable gun you can shoot well is better than nothing. If I wanted a .22 BUG I would look at the Beretta model that is like the Taurus posted above. Or even get the Taurus. Feed it with CCI mini mag hollow points and practice alot. Be prepared to empty it into an attacker just like when I carry my P3AT.

Jacobite

"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch.
Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote."
-Benjamin Franklin, 1759
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Slayer of Paper
Junior Member

USA
488 Posts

Posted - 09/10/2008 :  19:48:33  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
See, this is why I'm interested in seeing data on the round, as compared to the .380. I want to know just how far it will penetrate. Expansion isn't so big of a deal, because were talking about FMJ, so we're talking about either a 1/4 inch hole or a 1/3 inch hole- not a heck of a lot of difference. And Ted, I'd also be interested in seeing penetration data on the .17 HMR.

And no, I'm not worried that .22 or .380 is too light a round. The fact is, I rarely carry a BUG as it is. .22 is far better than that, wouldn't you say? My primary carry is usually a Glock 21 (sometimes a PF-9, but less and less as it gets cooler), and I carry it everywhere. I understand the need to carry a round that will do the job- plus, I like the way the .45 feels, and I shoot it better than a 9mm. I also shoot the .22 better than I do the .380, which is why I'm looking into this.

"If someone is so fearful that they are going to start using their weapons to protect their rights, it makes me very nervous that these people have weapons at all." ~Rep. Henry Waxman

"When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty." ~Thomas Jefferson
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zonker1986
Advanced Member

USA
8413 Posts

Posted - 09/10/2008 :  20:22:54  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
If I were going to carry a .22 for a BUG, it would have to be the Beretta Bobcat. Not much of an increase in rounds (7+1), but its very easy to shoot. I agree that 8 rounds of .22 is better than no BUG at all.
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Stoble
Junior Member

USA
298 Posts

Posted - 09/10/2008 :  22:01:34  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
We should get a LEO to comment but I do not believe they can use small calibers like the 25 and 22 due to lack of effectiveness. Now you are right we are not LEOs and we don't go after the BGs but who do the BGs prey on? US! To each his own as the song says.
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okjose
Average Member

874 Posts

Posted - 09/11/2008 :  01:23:07  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
One of the guns that the killer from Virginia Tech used was a Walther P.22, and you saw the damage it caused.



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BikerRN
Average Member

720 Posts

Posted - 09/11/2008 :  02:47:34  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
OK, here's a comment from a LEO

Off Duty I carry two guns at a minimum, prefer three. I have had need of my BUG in the past. The BUG at that time was a J-Frame .357 Magnum loaded with 125 Grain JHP's. The "Primary" is either a 3" .357 Magnum, a Glock 19 with +P+ bullets or a 5" 1911.

IMHO the BUG needs to be of sufficient caliber to stop the action that is threatening you, and handguns are already underpowered. I trust no handgun round to give me an infamous "one shot stop". If you have to resort to your BUG you are already having a really bad day and behind the curve. Why would you want to get further behind the curve by carrying a "mouse-gun"?

My third gun is a J-Frame 38 Special, which is the absolute minimum I will carry. 38 Special/9 MM is the bottom of the barrel as far as I'm concerned when it comes to defensive calibers. That is not to say they won't work, they will. I do however feel I must be more selective in what ammo I put in those guns than if I was loading a 45 ACP, 357 Magnum or Sig or even a .40.

No, a .380 is not a 9 MM and no, I won't carry one. I would consider a Keltec PF9 or a Kahr PM9. Im fact I traded my Kahr PM9 for an SP101 because it better met my needs. Next year I'll probably get a Glock 32/33 combo to carry as it's a little better than a 9 MM IMHO.

FRIENDS DON'T LET FRIENDS CARRY MOUSEGUNS


Biker
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Barry in IN
Advanced Member

3178 Posts

Posted - 09/11/2008 :  09:20:33  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I have carried a .22 but it was special circumstances. I was living somewhere with no provision for concealed carry, so- just as a coincidence, mind you- I felt the desire to buy a gun that was the absolute smallest I could get.
At the time, we didn't have the small 9mms, or even .380s, we have now. The S&W 3913 had not even come out yet, and it was rather impressive for it's lack of size when it did appear. Walthers were the small .380s. I tried .38 snubbies, but they were just a tiny bit bigger than I wanted (although I've found better ways of carrying them now, and might choose one now).

So a .22 was the only workable thing at the time, and I practiced with that gun a LOT. I belonged to a club with it's own indoor range that we members had 24-hr access to. I got off at 4:30AM then, and I was in there most mornings getting an hour or so of practice in. I went through a 5,000 rd case of Remington ammo that first winter. Ammo goes fast when you practice emptying the gun into the target when you shoot.
That was the best I could do at the time.
But times have changed, and I don't think we have to settle for that to get a small gun anymore.

That is one of two cases where I can grudgingly accept carrying a .22, and I don't think that case is very relevent anymore with the small guns in larger calibers available now.

I think the other reason is still valid, though the percentage of people it effects may be small.
That is if a person can't shoot something bigger.
And I mean they really can't, not "Oh I don't think I can handle that", but those who really CAN'T.
And you don't need to have broken wrists to fall under that category.
Some just can't shoot anything bigger. Whether it's the crappy sights, the noise, the recoil, or what, they just can't do it even if it appears they are doing things right.
To be honest, I think there are some people out there carrying snub .38s who would be better off with a snub .32 Mag, .22 Mag, or even a .22LR. There may not be many who fit that description, but that doesn't mean they don't exist.
I know that top-shelf instruction should correct most of that, and I wish everyone could get the very best instruction out there, but I also know that isn't going to happen for a number of reasons.
I wish it weren't the case, though.

Don't mistake any of this as praise for the .22 as a self defense round (or a .32...or a .380, or...) because it's not. I like the .22 and probably have more of them than anything else, but I also think the .22 is a dog for this use.
There may have been a ton of cases where people were killed with .22s, but some looking usually shows that they either died two days later, they got a million dollar hit to the exact place it needed to go, and usually- even though they died, they were still able to finish doing what got them shot. You may get some satisfaction before you die by arranging the same fate for your murderer, but that won't really help you in practical terms.

When the .22 comes up, someone usually mentions that the Mossad or Mafia has used .22s as assasination guns for years, and that may be true. But our situation of having to stop an attacker NOW is a lot different from sticking the gun's muzzle in someones's ear and emptying it into their brain stem as they stand at a urinal or lie tied with duct tape.
Yes, the Va Tech butt zit had a Walther P22, but he also had a 9mm. I have no idea who was shot with what and the results thereof, but penning kids in a classroom and shooting them like cattle in a slaughterhouse is, again, different from stopping someone who is trying to kill you.

If it's a choice of a .22 or nothing, then the .22 is the only choice.
Just make sure those are your only choices.

"I like marksmanship and think it is a good judge of character. A good shot is almost always a good man, because shooting calls for self-control, and self-control is one of the important aspects of a good man."
-Col. Jeff Cooper
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Stoble
Junior Member

USA
298 Posts

Posted - 09/11/2008 :  11:20:26  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
"Just make sure those are your only choices." Well stated!
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zonker1986
Advanced Member

USA
8413 Posts

Posted - 09/11/2008 :  11:33:27  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I spoke with a retired Galveston County Sheriffs Deputy that had been in more gun fights than he cared to admit....his weapon of choice upon retirement was a Bersa Model 23 .22. Not saying its right or wrong, but he said he could put 10 rounds of .22 in a dime size target at 10 yards in 2 seconds. I bought the same gun and confirmed his statement. Ten shots of .22 in rapid fire can seriously hurt you....I'm not talking one shot stops by any means.
I don't want to start another one shot debate here, 'cause I carry a 9mm Glock, but don't discount the .22. In rapid fire, it can be a nasty little weapon.
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xd45in
Senior Member

USA
1206 Posts

Posted - 09/11/2008 :  11:35:13  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
What would you think of a .22 MAG? Hornady and others are coming out with some pretty good loads.


When I leave my house in the morning, I take ALL of my Rights with me......GB

I will KEEP my GUNS you can KEEP the CHANGE
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LandonJ
Advanced Member

USA
6375 Posts

Posted - 09/11/2008 :  12:43:45  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
The only thing that I would worry about carrying a .22 is the lack of stopping power it would have on a determined subject, or one that is under the influence of an illicit drug. We've seen the report of what 17 shots of .223 and .40 S&W failed to do on a determined individual. Granted, shot placement is key, but you have a little more room for error if you are using a bigger bullet. We've also seen the 13 page thread on the effectiveness of the .380. I'm not saying anybody is wrong or right here. I just want to make it clear that sometimes even the bigger rounds don't do what they are supposed to do. I personally don't carry anything less than .40, but that's just personal preference.

It is always better to have any gun than no gun at all, so if .22 is what you choose, then at least you're ahead of the game.



"You are only out-gunned if you miss." -Jeff Cooper
Amatuers train until they get it right. Professionals train until they get it wrong.
NRA Life Member
NRA Certified Instructor
Utah CFP Instructor
USMC veteran

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cbhvac
Advanced Member

USA
6350 Posts

Posted - 10/01/2008 :  23:24:01  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
This started to go towards a 17HMR line of thought, and if that was the case, Id be right here:





"This democracy of ours which sometimes we've treated so lightly, is more than ever a comfortable cloak, so let us not tear it asunder, for no man knows once it is destroyed where or when he will find its protective warmth again." --Ronald Reagan
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Presspass
Armed & Dangerous

USA
9057 Posts

Posted - 10/02/2008 :  08:29:45  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I have other weapons, and I carry depending on what I will be doing that day, but my .22 is my favorite. I am in a unique situation, though, much like Barry mentioned. I have weight restrictions on what I can lift (less than two pounds), and I can't be jiggled or jarred in any shape or form. Anything that jiggles me jiggles my brain, and that is a very bad thing. When you have a hole in your brain and it is leaking out cerebral spinal fluid, getting jiggled means faster leaking. Trust me, we don't want to leak any faster. I need the lightest recoil possible. I have to practice to carry, and that means that I need a gun I can practice with that won't scramble my brains every time I pull the trigger. I'm petite to begin with, and have small hands. Bigger guns would be an issue just because of my size. Adding my health concerns on top creates another layer we have to deal with. In an emergency, I would and could shoot anything and we would deal with the physical fallout later. But for every day, I need to be as good as I can and take care of my self to the best of my ability while also being able to carry. A .22 is the only thing that consistently meets all of my needs.


You can't fix stupid, but you can slap the crap out of it.
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hornet
Junior Member

492 Posts

Posted - 10/02/2008 :  11:11:28  Show Profile  Visit hornet's Homepage  Reply with Quote
I had a NAA .22LR for a while. Tiny gun that you could hide anywhere, but it was horrible to shoot. Rounds started tumbling at about 10'. I was always afraid I'd shoot a finger off. I ended up buying their large rubber grips which made it controllable but totally killed the concealability. These are more of a novelty than a viable self defense option IMO. Traded it in for my Keltec P3AT. I'd stick with the P3AT for a small, hide gun.

Whiskey, guns, and hiking. What else is there?
http://www.desertdogjournal.com
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