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Nathan
Big Sky Guy
USA
21544 Posts |
 Posted - 12/06/2008 : 15:19:41
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no matter how much training you do you do not know how you will react until it happens. the stresses of a defensive shooting are immense. you dont have time to think the situation through (if you did you would have time to begin your retreat!), you simply (hopefully!) react! you lose your ability to reason and your finer motorskills almost immediately. try this...walk up to your door, remove your keys, unlock your door and walk inside your home. now try the same series of steps again, but this time do it with a 125 pound rotweiller running towards you with bad intentions and youll see what i mean about your finer motorskills and ability to reason. under the stresses of a defensive shooting you will also loose your hearing for the most part, and you will develop a strong sense of tunnel vision. there is no way you can train to handle the stresses of a defensive shooting; you can only prepare yourself mentally and train until the motions are instinctual because when the bullets start to fly you will revert back to what is instinctual. based on that, i have a hard time recommending manual safeties on carry weapons. pulling a trigger is absolutely instinctual; youve been practicing it since you were old enough to point your finger-gun at your brother and yell "bang". under the stresses of a defensive shooting i feel that most anybody can pull a trigger but only the most highly trained people will have the frame of mind to disengage the manual safety before pulling the trigger. i dont have a problem with manual safeties for those who dedicate to training to the point that the safety sweep is instinctual; therein lies the problem. most people will train, but will they really train to the point that the safety sweep becomes instinctual? i can promise you that a gun fight is not the time to find out. with this in mind, i cannot imagine why anyone would want an extra step standing between themselves and their ability to stop the threat that is trying to kill them. many good men have died pulling the trigger on a loaded gun that wouldnt discharge due to the safety.
CLICK HERE for the 8 meg video. |
Nathan In Montana, carrying a Gen4 Glock 19 loaded with Federal 147 grain +P JHPs carried in a Galco King Tuk thats worn on a Wilderness Instructor's belt.
NRA Certified Instructor, Rifle, Shotgun and Pistol
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Geoff
Advanced Member
USA
5354 Posts |
Posted - 12/06/2008 : 15:36:10
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That is some SCARY  man.
That is EXACTLY the reason while I dont use a safety, I have caught some criticism about not carry in the safe position when I have a manual safety on my weapon.
This is a great argument for the cause thats for sure, if you do have a safety PRACTICE TAKING IT OFF when you practice shooting |
NRA Basic Pistol Instructor, Gun Collector, Hunter, Sportsman, and EDUCATED VOTER lol
A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State,the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed"
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CowHossDoc
Junior Member
USA
310 Posts |
Posted - 12/06/2008 : 16:56:38
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| My thoughts, think of all the game that has been missed by the hunter not disengaging the safety on the hunting rifle. That is not life or death but the excitement causes the forgetting of the disengagement of the safety. A lack of safety was one reason I chose a Glock. |
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LandonJ
Advanced Member
USA
6375 Posts |
Posted - 12/06/2008 : 17:44:26
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| I've seen this video before, and if I remember correctly, the jeweler pulled through and was only struck a couple of times, if I do recall this being the incident. It's unfortunate that he wasn't able to engage the bad guy. What we don't know is if the owner armed himself with or without any real self defense training. We don't know if or how much he practiced, and we don't know what type of weapon he was using. The only thing we do know is that we need to constantly train our minds and our bodies if that day comes where we find ourselves in that situation. |
"You are only out-gunned if you miss." -Jeff Cooper
Amatuers train until they get it right. Professionals train until they get it wrong.
NRA Life Member
NRA Certified Instructor
Utah CFP Instructor
USMC veteran
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Barry in IN
Advanced Member
3178 Posts |
Posted - 12/06/2008 : 18:04:37
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One has to learn to take the safety off, and practice it with their shooting, but I don't think it takes all that much work. At least on guns with a well-placed and well-designed safety lever.
I don't even consider it an extra step. I consider it part of aligning the gun on target. Gun comes up, safety goes off. Gun comes down, safety goes on.
I've seen plenty of people in classes who seem rather inept mechanically, yet even they learn it quickly on the gun they have hardly used before (and sometimes on a gun they have never used it at all). They get it in a few reps early in the class, and never forget it...at least for the duration of the class. I doubt I've seen more than 30 minutes spent on the entire firing stroke, including the safety operation.
Of course, it's up to them to practice it after learning it, like everything else.
And that's the first thing that comes to my mind when seeing the jeweler in the video.
Sure, he left the safety on, but how much practice has he had with the gun? A lot? None? Did he work with it regularly, or did he run out and buy the gun after the last robbery to leave at the store and never touch except to stick it in his waistband each morning when he unlocks?
I'm also curious what kind of gun it was, but I'll get to that.
Sure, hunters forget the safety. But like the jeweler, what is their practice history? If they only take the rifle out once a year, it can happen. If they actually practice mounting the gun and taking snap shots, they should never have trouble.
I think it's like a clutch on a manual transmission. You have to learn to stomp it before slamming on the brakes to keep from killing the engine, but after you learn it and do it regularly, you always do it. You just do it out of habit, even when a dog runs in front of you from nowhere.
Back to the safety's design/placement, because I think that is absolutely key.
If it's a 1911 or HiPower, the safety is right where you place the thumb. I keep my thumb on top of it, but I realize some don't like doing that. Do that, and it's part of gripping the gun. If one has the motor functions to operate the trigger, I think they can operate the safety that gets compressed in their firing grip.
But I cannot and will not use the safety on DA autos like Beretta 92s, S&W 39/59 series, etc. If I have to reach for it, I'm not going to count on being able to operate it.
This is why I wonder what kind of gun the jeweler had. He might have gotten away with minimal practice on a 1911, but if using some of the DAs with manual safeties, it wouldn't be near as forgiving.
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"I like marksmanship and think it is a good judge of character. A good shot is almost always a good man, because shooting calls for self-control, and self-control is one of the important aspects of a good man."
-Col. Jeff Cooper |
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mattinglyt
Watchdog
USA
11935 Posts |
Posted - 12/06/2008 : 18:44:51
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| I pray that day never comes for any of us, but I stand by my decision to carry a weapon as this discussion is on. I practice as such too, and I don't take it very lightly. |
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jeeper1
Junior Member
USA
327 Posts |
Posted - 12/06/2008 : 19:03:32
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| None of my 4 CC guns have safeties on them for that reason. My OC guns are all double action for the first shot and I don't use the safeties on them, ever. |
I may not be completely sane, but at least I don't think I have the power to influence the weather |
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Bill in Ohio
Senior Member
USA
1008 Posts |
Posted - 12/06/2008 : 19:34:19
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I've seen that before too. Tragic. My thoughts are more along the lines of Barry's. I carry 1911's and sweeping the safety seems automatic to me. I won't say I've practiced a ton, but I have done it a lot. Two of my 3 cars are manual transmission and Barry's analogy of stomping the clutch in a panic stop rings true for me. I've not missed doing that, but I have searched for the clutch on the automatic a few times. :)
If I shoot someone elses DAO gun, my thumb always seems to make a false start.
I'd like to know more about that victim and his gun.
Regardless, that is a powerful message for everyone. One of the things I noticed is that the victim seemed to go for his gun fairly smoothly and without any panic. He of course, didn't have a gun pointed at him at that split second, but he didn't strike me as someone with no sense of what he was doing.
It doesn't mean much, but my take is that if he'd finished in the same "flow" as he began there could have been a far different out come.
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Bill in Ohio
Senior Member
USA
1008 Posts |
Posted - 12/06/2008 : 19:47:01
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One little extra thought. If somebody has the SLIGHTEST doubt about whether they'll automatically hit the safety under duress, they are carrying the wrong gun....until they are sure. The greatest point of Nathan's post and video is just as he says. What do we really know, until it happens???
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Barry in IN
Advanced Member
3178 Posts |
Posted - 12/06/2008 : 20:03:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Bill in Ohio
One little extra thought. If somebody has the SLIGHTEST doubt about whether they'll automatically hit the safety under duress, they are carrying the wrong gun....until they are sure. The greatest point of Nathan's post and video is just as he says. What do we really know, until it happens???
Agree fully.
Your observations about the bad guy remind me of something else: Notice he was moving from the start, and was turned sideways much of the time (cutting his width almost in half). Just something to think about when we are feeling good about how we are doing on stationary cardboard target that's facing us straight on. |
"I like marksmanship and think it is a good judge of character. A good shot is almost always a good man, because shooting calls for self-control, and self-control is one of the important aspects of a good man."
-Col. Jeff Cooper |
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Minarchy4Sale
Senior Member
USA
1089 Posts |
Posted - 12/06/2008 : 21:03:09
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| These videos make me feel completely unprepared. I need to find a way to do something besides static range work. |
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Nathan
Big Sky Guy
USA
21544 Posts |
Posted - 12/06/2008 : 22:16:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Bill in Ohio
the victim seemed to go for his gun fairly smoothly and without any panic.
exactly barry. he didnt have a gun pointed at him at that second but he knew the gun was coming which is why he executed his draw...and his draw was with proficiency rivaling that of highly trained operators. even still, he didnt have the frame of mind to disengage the safety in the split second he had to end the threat. that is the exact point i was making by posting the video. |
Nathan In Montana, carrying a Gen4 Glock 19 loaded with Federal 147 grain +P JHPs carried in a Galco King Tuk thats worn on a Wilderness Instructor's belt.
NRA Certified Instructor, Rifle, Shotgun and Pistol
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Nathan
Big Sky Guy
USA
21544 Posts |
Posted - 12/06/2008 : 22:18:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Minarchy4Sale
These videos make me feel completely unprepared. I need to find a way to do something besides static range work.
excellent point! |
Nathan In Montana, carrying a Gen4 Glock 19 loaded with Federal 147 grain +P JHPs carried in a Galco King Tuk thats worn on a Wilderness Instructor's belt.
NRA Certified Instructor, Rifle, Shotgun and Pistol
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FiRM GRiP
New Member
54 Posts |
Posted - 12/06/2008 : 23:51:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Minarchy4Sale
These videos make me feel completely unprepared. I need to find a way to do something besides static range work.
Find a club that has IDPA or IPSC events. You get a chance to work on your draw, shoot on the move, make shoot/no shoot decisions, make use of cover (for IDPA), and make use of flashlights in low light/no light scenarios. The competition and bystanders watching add a bit of stress as well. With your heart pounding and hands and knees shaking that tactical reload that you do in front of the mirror at home becomes a bit of a challenge. |
NRA Lifer
Walther PPS 9mm | Glock 17 RTF | SIG P228 | Berreta 92FS | Taurus 627 Tracker | Ruger LCP (only for the speedo by the pool)
"We will always remember. We will always be proud. We will always be prepared, so we may always be free." Ronald Reagan |
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okjose
Average Member
874 Posts |
Posted - 12/07/2008 : 03:13:56
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Looks like the store owner would've had the first shot if it wasn't for the safety.
In my opinion, even if you train tacking the safety off, and do it well, its still a micro second you spend disengaging the safety that could be used on pulling the trigger, and every micro second counts. |
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atinsley
New Member
USA
96 Posts |
Posted - 12/07/2008 : 04:17:40
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Nate, great post, especially the first part about doing something under stress. This is something that we all need to keep in mind when we are training.
Under the stress of a potentialy violent confrontation, you will more then likely experience Tachypsychia, better known as the Fight or Flight response, also referred to as the adrenaline dump.
Some of the more common experiences with this condition are tunnel vision, hearing loss, increased pain tolerance, loss of color vision, short term memory loss, decreased communication skills, decreased coordination and decreased fine motor skills.
I would suspect that most of us probably shoot in a fairly controlled environment. While any training is good, we need to make sure that we are also training in as realistic of an environment as possible.
As a martial artist, I teach and train techniques that allow me to simulate the adrenaline dump, so that I can better try to manage the condition, while still being able to defend myself and execute my self defenses. I say manage because you can't control the actual response since it is an automatic response from the body to a perceived attack or threat, so the more you know of the condition and the symptoms, the better prepared you are to deal with, and go home from, a violent encounter.
I've now started carrying this over to my firearms training and have helped friends incorporate it into thier training as well.
I learned real quick the difference it makes. On a normal day at the range, I can run my targets out (either static or moving) and execute a perfect double tap to the head. I tried this again after I triggered the FoF response and I completely missed my target. It was a real eye opener.
It may or may not be something you find helpful, but I do highly recommend at least trying it. The triggers to simulate FoF are different for everyone, so it may take some trial and error.
Because of the various effects of an adrenaline dump on your system, I ask that anyone who is going to try this to make sure you do your research, especially if you have certain medical conditions that may be adversely affected by the FoF response. |
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Barry in IN
Advanced Member
3178 Posts |
Posted - 12/07/2008 : 08:11:59
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quote:
Originally posted by okjose
...its still a micro second you spend disengaging the safety that could be used on pulling the trigger, and every micro second counts.
Maybe so...If you practice doing these things in seperate steps. If you do something like 1) Align the gun 2)Disengage safety 3) Place finger in trigger guard 4) Press trigger...even in an abbreviated time period, then yes, it adds a step and microseconds to it.
But if sweeping the safety off is part of gripping and aligning the gun, it will be done well before (in this compressed scale/space of time) the finger enters the trigger guard.
Had the victim practiced this way, his safety would have been off well before his gun was aligned with the bad guy.
People who use the first method (and there are indeed many) are using the safety as sort of a "pre-trigger".
They align the gun, then go through two steps to fire the shot: safety off/press trigger. Even if they do it in the blink of an eye, it's two steps.
And it's wrong. Do it right, and I don't see that it's a problem. And it takes very little time to learn to do it right. |
"I like marksmanship and think it is a good judge of character. A good shot is almost always a good man, because shooting calls for self-control, and self-control is one of the important aspects of a good man."
-Col. Jeff Cooper |
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Bill in Ohio
Senior Member
USA
1008 Posts |
Posted - 12/07/2008 : 09:06:25
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Barry, I have to agree with you on this, as well. Maybe I'm missing something, but bringing the gun to bear "while disengaging the safety" are one fluid move to me.
In my mind, it's no different than confirming your grip. Obviously, when we draw our gun, the gun could be described as first grabbed, then gripped..........if that makes any sense.
Disengaging a safetey, to me, is not a seperate action. It's part of a continuous action that has several elements to it.
I just now reached for my 1911, carried IWB. Is that exact grip the one which I would fire the weapon? No way! The guns position in my hand, like other things, is adjusted as it's brought to bear.
Again, that movement / adjustment, in my hand has no greater / lesser significance than disengaging the safety. I doubt I could account for the pressure of each of my individual fingers, but it's part of the deal as well, as the grip is established and the gun made ready. |
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FiRM GRiP
New Member
54 Posts |
Posted - 12/07/2008 : 09:08:40
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| A secondary issue to consider is, after the fact, returning the pistol to a safe condition. How many of us practice this over and over. This extends to DA/SA's as well. I typically shoot my Sig until dry at the range, no need to decock on live round. And during IDPA, range rules have me dry fire to drop the hammer. This thread has made me think about how decocking for me is not engrained as it should be. Handling a pistol at the range or after a real encounter could be a very dangerous situation without the safety engaged or decocked. KISS (keep it simple stupid), IMO manual safeties go against this philosophy. |
NRA Lifer
Walther PPS 9mm | Glock 17 RTF | SIG P228 | Berreta 92FS | Taurus 627 Tracker | Ruger LCP (only for the speedo by the pool)
"We will always remember. We will always be proud. We will always be prepared, so we may always be free." Ronald Reagan |
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RickC
Good American
USA
3291 Posts |
Posted - 12/07/2008 : 10:43:40
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I hate to disagree with Nathan, but on this matter I fall more in line with Barry in IN and Bill in Ohio.
That said; let me say that I don’t totally disagree with Nathan. In the shooting in the video there are to many unknowns to avow that this is the definitive standard of evidence to not carry a weapon with a manual safety.
Both Bill and Barry have clearly iterated that it is not the design of the weapon but the training of the person that uses it. That is why I will only carry one type of weapon as my EDC (every day carry). This is the weapon I train myself to draw and come to the ready position with the weapon ready to fire. The only thing left to do is raise the weapon to the firing position and put the finger on the trigger. If the threat is imminent I go straight to the fire position.
Yes it is a bad idea for someone to carry a weapon with a manual safety if they are what I call a weekend warrior. Those are the people that only carry when they think the will need their weapon or only carry on the weekends, thus the moniker “weekend warrior”. These are the ones that don’t practice constantly. If you don’t practice with your weapon until every draw is the same smooth fluid action and completely automatic you are going to have problems.
This problem can be resolved with training and practice, practice, practice. I draw my weapon 10- 20 times a day bringing it to the ready position. Included in the draw is the grasping the gun, as the gun comes up my side sweeping the safety off as my grip becomes established and the movement to the center of my chest as my other hand completes the grip and pushes the gun forward to the ready position. You learn this in separate steps, but it becomes one fluid motion as you practice. You need to take this one step further and at least once a month complete the draw and shoot the gun. A lot of the ranges in my area will not let you draw and shoot at the range unless you are participating in a class. You will most likely need to go somewhere outside where you can fire your gun. I try to have someone with me when I do the live fire draws to be my signal when to draw and fire rather than saying to myself “go”. When I first started my training there were a couple of times when I did the live fire draws that I ended up having no “bang” when I pulled the trigger. It made me feel very stupid during my first level II tactical class, but the training and practice killed that deadly habit and ingrained into my draw sweeping off the safety.
As I have said in other posts it is paramount that the gun you carry for the protection of your life be the one you train and practice with. Yes I do sometimes shoot other types of pistols, but always in a very limited way. No 200 round days with someone else’s gun, just a mag or two to see what it was like. And for some reason I always end up with the thought, “Yea, that was nice, but it just doesn’t shoot like a good 1911.
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Rick
"I carry a gun, 'cause a Cop is to heavy"
-Anonymous- |
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Nathan
Big Sky Guy
USA
21544 Posts |
Posted - 12/07/2008 : 13:57:57
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quote:
Originally posted by RickC
In the shooting in the video there are to many unknowns to avow that this is the definitive standard of evidence to not carry a weapon with a manual safety.
this was never intended to be absolute. it is nothing more than an example of why i discourage manual safeties on carry weapons. please do not confuse my recommendations as they will be very different depending upon the skill level of the individual. i would never discourage barry (for example) from carrying a manual safety because i know how hard barry trains. to the newbie however, i have to factor in the lack of experience and base my recommendations accordingly. this is why i qualified my initial statement with "under the stresses of a defensive shooting i feel that most anybody can pull a trigger but only the most highly trained people will have the frame of mind to disengage the manual safety before pulling the trigger". with that (and other) qualification my recommendation does not apply to the highly skilled. |
Nathan In Montana, carrying a Gen4 Glock 19 loaded with Federal 147 grain +P JHPs carried in a Galco King Tuk thats worn on a Wilderness Instructor's belt.
NRA Certified Instructor, Rifle, Shotgun and Pistol
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Mike
Junior Member
USA
201 Posts |
Posted - 12/07/2008 : 15:23:03
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I have to go with Barry and Bill on this. I disengage my safety as i grasp to draw and re-engage as i lower. No time lost.
While i understand the simplicity for the new or inexperienced shooter, not having a manual safety is one less step for them to overcome. I also think that carrying a weapon comes with a commitment to do it responsibly, and time spent practicing and developing muscle memory is never wasted.
Will that same inexperienced shooter forget about trigger discipline and fire unnessicarily at an intruder or there child coming home late?
This debate will probably never be settled in our lives. I will say that if a person is going to carry, shame on them if they cant take the time to become intimately familiar with there weapon of choice.
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Work harder, millions on welfare depend on you!! |
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Bill in Ohio
Senior Member
USA
1008 Posts |
Posted - 12/07/2008 : 17:22:49
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This is really a very important thread. Anybody reading it, particularly new people, should ask themselves at some "gut level" if they have the slightest doubt about their ability to disengage the safety in the flow of drawing their gun.
I do think this question is a deal breaker. ANYONE with any doubts, in my opinion, has two options. The fastest option would be to carry a different gun. Learning, of course is the second option. This has to be intuitive and if you consider it a step, I'd go ahead and just carry a different gun.
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ske1eter
Junior Member
USA
120 Posts |
Posted - 12/07/2008 : 19:37:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Mike
I have to go with Barry and Bill on this. I disengage my safety as i grasp to draw and re-engage as i lower. No time lost.
While i understand the simplicity for the new or inexperienced shooter, not having a manual safety is one less step for them to overcome. I also think that carrying a weapon comes with a commitment to do it responsibly, and time spent practicing and developing muscle memory is never wasted.
Agree 100%! I have no problem using my 1911 as a defensive gun.
quote:
Will that same inexperienced shooter forget about trigger discipline and fire unnessicarily at an intruder or there child coming home late?
Not sure what that this has to do with manual safeties.
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This debate will probably never be settled in our lives. I will say that if a person is going to carry, shame on them if they cant take the time to become intimately familiar with there weapon of choice.
Agreed |
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Republicans believe every day is the Fourth of July, but the democrats believe every day is April 15.
-Ronald Reagan |
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alienbogey
Starting Member
41 Posts |
Posted - 12/07/2008 : 20:14:44
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Points that haven't been brought up yet:
> In a recent book by Ayoob that I read he comes out in favor of carrying with safety engaged for the reason that if in a struggle for control of the weapon that the BG wins, there is a good chance the BG will not immediately figure out how to disengage the safety to fire. Ayoob states that there are many cases of such, and relates several blow-by-blow description of LEO's losing their weapons to the BG, who then unsuccessfully attempts to pull the trigger on the officer with the officer's own weapon.
In the book Ayoob, while in favor of on-safe, recommends the decision be up to the individual while pointing out that there are PD's that allow each officer to decide, PD's that mandate off-safe, and PD's that have gone to DAO issue weapons only thus rendering the policy decision moot.
> It strikes me that the argument for carrying safety off - because of a lack of training - might also be an argument for carrying WITH safety engaged. Not only are there people who will not train enough to ensure taking the safety in extremis, there are people who won't train enough to keep their finger off the trigger until the decision is made to fire, or will not train enough to safely draw or replace the weapon, or may be careless about keeping it under there immediate control, or may be careless about storage. While such people shouldn't own a weapon in the first place they will exercise their right to do so. If you knew of such a person - oh, let's call him Blaxico - who was going to buy a weapon regardless, would you recommend on or off-safe carry?
I believe everyone is in agreement on training, but I can't resist adding a war story that illustrates the principle that you will fight like you train.
I was in a Navy Hornet squadron in the Gulf War. A squadron mate came back from a mission after successfully evading several surface-to-air missiles that had been fired at him. We watched the replay of his HUD tape while he gave us a blow by blow account - after he had outmaneuvered the last SAM he was very low on altitude and airspeed and if the Iraqis had fired just one more they likely would have bagged him. I asked him if he had hit the jettison button to drop his external fuel tanks.
He stopped dead, looked at me and said, "It never even crossed my mind."
At the time our training didn't emphasize that and the joke was that the Navy considered drop tanks to be "keep" tanks.
If you don't train to it you won't do it in combat when your brain is down to stem power.
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Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side. |
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RickC
Good American
USA
3291 Posts |
Posted - 12/07/2008 : 21:03:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Nathan
[quote]]this was never intended to be absolute. it is nothing more than an example of why i discourage manual safeties on carry weapons. please do not confuse my recommendations as they will be very different depending upon the skill level of the individual. i would never discourage barry (for example) from carrying a manual safety because i know how hard barry trains. to the newbie however, i have to factor in the lack of experience and base my recommendations accordingly. this is why i qualified my initial statement with "under the stresses of a defensive shooting i feel that most anybody can pull a trigger but only the most highly trained people will have the frame of mind to disengage the manual safety before pulling the trigger". with that (and other) qualification my recommendation does not apply to the highly skilled.
I agree with you Nathan. Maybe I did not read enough into your answer as I went with the impression left by the video. You let the video do the talking for you and it was biased as it stood. I felt that you were indicting all of us and saying that we should not use a weapon with a manual safety.
You said in the original post that pulling the trigger is "instinctive". I propose that for a lot of us sweeping off the safety on a 1911 type weapon is just as "instinctive" as pulling the trigger.
It is an important topic and needs to be discussed in this type of a setting and I am glad that you started it. It got us all to talking and thinking about the consequences.
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Rick
"I carry a gun, 'cause a Cop is to heavy"
-Anonymous- |
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Topic |
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carry weapon safeties - with video
