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Nathan
Big Sky Guy
USA
21639 Posts |
 Posted - 01/09/2009 : 22:42:35
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You are linked to this page because you are reading or participating in a thread including discussion on mouse-guns or mouse-gun calibers. With the growing popularity of mouse-guns and the threads concerning them I felt it necessary to create this thread to prevent a lot of redundant responses.
In regards to concealed carry, everything is a compromise. You sacrifice caliber for capacity or overall size, features for cost, sight radius for concealability, etc. Any time you pick up a handgun instead of a rifle, carbine, or shotgun you are compromising and this is perfectly acceptable by any reasonable standard as you cannot realistically carry an M4 under your coat. One sacrifice you cannot afford to make however is to sacrifice true security for convenience.
Mouse-guns are indeed very convenient. You can slip them in your pocket and walk with nothing more required. You can dress around a mouse-gun with nothing more than anything that has a pocket. It takes absolutely no effort at all to effectively conceal a mouse-gun. Anything this perfect must have a downside and mouse-guns are no exception. Simply put, mouse-gun calibers (.380, .32, .25, etc.) are absolutely inadequate and should never be entrusted to protect your life. Mouse-gun calibers simply do not possess the ballistic properties required to ensure an incapacitating wound with any consistancy despite near perfect shot placement which is nearly impossible to obtain anyway while under the stresses of a defensive shooting. Will a .380 kill a human size threat? Absolutely....if you can afford to wait several minutes for your threat to bleed-out. How will your threat spend those minutes while he is bleeding-out? Shooting at you, perhaps?
Some will advise you that if you carry a mouse-gun to take a head-shot. With enough practice this is quite easy to do at the range in perfect lighting against a paper target that isnt charging towards you or shooting at you. In real life its not nearly as easy. The stresses of a defensive shooting removes your finer motor skills making it extremely difficult to hit center mass much less a head-shot. I just dont see the typical person being able to hit a large charging threat in the head most likely under less than perfect lighting conditions who could be shooting them. Simply put, if your defensive plan depends on a perfectly placed shot to the head you need a new plan.
We carry a gun in preparation to face the last thing we ever want to have to do....shoot to defend our lives. If I'm not in trouble, the weapon I have with me is absolutely insignificant. It's only when I'm in absolute grave danger that my weapon becomes the only thing standing between myself and death. Knowing that, why wouldn't I want the absolute best tool available for the job? Your handgun can quite possibly be the only thing that gets you home safely tonight. With this in mind, I hope you will carry a handgun with more stopping power potential than mouse-guns offer. I want the exact same thing that you want. I want you to make it home safely and if you have to defend your life a service caliber is the better tool for the job. Yes, any gun is better than no gun at all, but it most often doesn't truly have to come down to that and most tell that to themselves to feel better about trading security for convenience.
Please take a few minutes and read MY CARRY GUIDE as it lists many options for your consideration.
ConcealedCarryForum.com exists to promote all aspects of responsible carry and we accomplish this by dispensing reliable, proven information. What you do with that information, is certainly up to you.
Be safe,
Nathan |
Nathan In Montana, carrying a Gen4 Glock 19 loaded with Federal 147 grain +P JHPs carried in a Galco King Tuk thats worn on a Wilderness Instructor's belt.
NRA Certified Instructor, Rifle, Shotgun and Pistol
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1911guy5150
Average Member
USA
500 Posts |
Posted - 01/11/2009 : 17:18:35
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Nathan, I'm in total agreement to your thread buddy! I have and always will carry my trusty 1911 in it's comfortable home on my hip in it's well worn IWB rig. This little gun simply impressed me as a viable back up. I was simply singing it's praises as a very well made and easy shooting firearm for half the cost of others that I've been looking at for a while ( sig, walther and Tanfoglio ) to ride in a coat pocket or between the seat in my truck. But that thread of your's is great and very helpful to those a little less experienced in the world of concealed carry. Keep up the great work! |
Though I may fall at the hand of an evil man, know that many evil men will fall at my righteous hand.
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Geoff
Advanced Member
USA
5360 Posts |
Posted - 01/11/2009 : 19:55:29
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hey Scott, you got a little something on your nose lol
I have not seen ya around yet sir, welcome to the forum, glad you joined this crazy, distorted, funny, crude and sometimes a little helpful family lol |
NRA Basic Pistol Instructor, Gun Collector, Hunter, Sportsman, and EDUCATED VOTER lol
A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State,the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed"
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LandonJ
Advanced Member
USA
6375 Posts |
Posted - 01/11/2009 : 21:17:24
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| I refuse to buy a weapon with an insufficient caliber. That being said, I won't even buy a .22 rifle. In handguns, it's at least 9mm, and in rifles, it's at least .223 and up. For shotguns I only buy 12 ga so I'm only dealing with one gauge. |
"You are only out-gunned if you miss." -Jeff Cooper
Amatuers train until they get it right. Professionals train until they get it wrong.
NRA Life Member
NRA Certified Instructor
Utah CFP Instructor
USMC veteran
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LKline
Jew-Jitsu Master
USA
5029 Posts |
Posted - 01/12/2009 : 12:52:29
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Well Said Nathan.
Death Wish was on the last night & I found it interesting that Bronson's character was carrying a .32 revolver.... No wonder it took him two or more shots to put most of his assailants down... |
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DaddyO16
Advanced Member
USA
6026 Posts |
Posted - 01/12/2009 : 13:25:43
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quote:
Originally posted by LKline
Well Said Nathan.
Death Wish was on the last night & I found it interesting that Bronson's character was carrying a .32 revolver.... No wonder it took him two or more shots to put most of his assailants down...
And in DWII isn't that a .380 he's packin'? |
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ksigtuck
Senior Member
1332 Posts |
Posted - 01/12/2009 : 17:10:54
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quote:
Originally posted by LandonJ
I refuse to buy a weapon with an insufficient caliber. That being said, I won't even buy a .22 rifle. In handguns, it's at least 9mm, and in rifles, it's at least .223 and up. For shotguns I only buy 12 ga so I'm only dealing with one gauge.
Landon you gotta pick up a .22 pistol to plink around with man, way to much fun to go out and be able to put 750 rounds through one and only be out $13. The P22 also came in handy for mowing when I lived in the country...avg. 2-3 snakes everytime I mowed . Of course,plinking is all the gun is good for but it sure is fun to shoot.
TUck |
"The gun has been called the great equalizer, meaning that a small person with a gun is equal to a large person, but it is a great equalizer in another way, too. It insures that the people are the equal of their government whenever that government forgets that it is servant and not master of the governed." - 40th President of the United States Ronald Reagan 1911-2004 |
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hoover39
Junior Member
114 Posts |
Posted - 01/12/2009 : 17:50:29
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| Nathan coudln't have said it better. I believe Clint Smith said that a wearing a gun is not suppose to be comfortable but comforting so I carry nothing but a 45. |
Springfield SS TRP
Colt Officers Model
M&P 45 Full size
M&P 45 Mid Size
Super Blackhawk 44 mag
S&W model 60 |
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watson524
Starting Member
19 Posts |
Posted - 01/20/2009 : 13:09:55
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Ksig - where do you get your .22lr that cheap?
I just got a brick for $15 and that was a few bucks off onsale (American Eagle but I see similar prices for Remington).
I love my P22 for plinking. For snakes, I have a Taurus Judge in a 6" barrel :-) |
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Sean99TJ
Watchdog
USA
3468 Posts |
Posted - 01/20/2009 : 17:11:59
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| Guys....in hollywood Bronson can kill someone with a blowgun...to bad it doesnt work that way in real life. |
The Second Amendment is in place in case they ignore the others.
The next time Satan reminds you of your past.....Remind him of his future.
Never fight with an old guy.....if you win there is no glory, and if you lose your reputation is shot. |
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ksigtuck
Senior Member
1332 Posts |
Posted - 01/20/2009 : 17:51:15
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The last 550 pack that I picked up was at Wal-Mart and I believe it was around $11-$13 but that has been a year or so. I haven't looked at the prices for 22's lately but I am sure that they have went up as well. I will have to take a look if the Wal-mart here ever gets any more ammo.
Tuck |
"The gun has been called the great equalizer, meaning that a small person with a gun is equal to a large person, but it is a great equalizer in another way, too. It insures that the people are the equal of their government whenever that government forgets that it is servant and not master of the governed." - 40th President of the United States Ronald Reagan 1911-2004 |
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watson524
Starting Member
19 Posts |
Posted - 01/20/2009 : 19:55:51
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| Cool, thanks for the info. I never think to look at WallyWorld for ammo since we're in the local gun shop so much. |
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faithnotwork
Starting Member
10 Posts |
Posted - 02/25/2009 : 05:14:04
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Hello,
I think most people expect to fire one shot and the bad guy goes down. That happens in the movies, not in real life when adrenline is flowing in both parties.
Expectations that a gun should have one round stopping power is not realistic. A hit anywhere from a .380 is a better deterent than a missed shot from a 9mm. I think more importantly, skill level ultimately determines your ability to defend yourself.
There are no absolutes in a street fight. I understand you want to keep it in your favor. However, if the question was carry with a .380 or dont carry at all, I would choose to have the .380
I think we all need to keep an open mind about our "requirements" for safety.
Respectfully,
FNW |
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LKline
Jew-Jitsu Master
USA
5029 Posts |
Posted - 02/25/2009 : 07:46:08
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Please see my commentary in red...
quote:
Originally posted by faithnotwork
Hello,
I think most people expect to fire one shot and the bad guy goes down. That happens in the movies, not in real life when adrenline is flowing in both parties. That adrenaline is what turns a great marksman into a good marksman, good into moderate, moderate into poor, etc...
Expectations that a gun should have one round stopping power is not realistic. A hit anywhere from a .380 is a better deterent than a missed shot from a 9mm. I think more importantly, skill level ultimately determines your ability to defend yourself. Skill level only goes so far when under the stress of a BG attacking you.
There are no absolutes in a street fight. I understand you want to keep it in your favor. However, if the question was carry with a .380 or dont carry at all, I would choose to have the .380. While I agree with that, If you can carry a .380 I am sure you can find a 9mm that is of very similar size that will be so much more effective.
I think we all need to keep an open mind about our "requirements" for safety. All due respect, I will keep an open mind about anything on which I do not depend to defend the lives of my self, family & friends. When it comes to this matter though, I can not be flexible. I will keep my .40s & I urge you to step up to at least 9mm. I value your life & safety enough to plead with you on this matter.
Respectfully,
FNW
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Eric
Senior Member
1202 Posts |
Posted - 02/25/2009 : 08:18:37
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Faith,
I think the basic premise is that if someone is carrying only a .380 as their primary, they are making the wrong decision.
Better than nothing? Well of course, doubt anyone could argue that, if it was all one had. But if it IS all one had, one should be trying to replace it ASAP with a competent caliber for EDC and relegate the .380 to no more than "backup" carry. |
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faithnotwork
Starting Member
10 Posts |
Posted - 02/25/2009 : 18:46:17
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Thank you all very much for your time and input on this issue.
I take your replies very seriously and have mulled them over in my mind. I currently do not carry, because I have no immediate reason to. Although I am thinking that with the changes in the economy, there will be reason to protect life and property. So this is a prep step.
We'll see where we go from here. My wife is getting her concealed carry license so this was originally one for her to wear on the farm during the day.. since at the time of purchase this was the only gun that she would consider...so we are at the point of nothing or something..you never know.... since she really doesn't want to carry at all, I figured this was a good alternative... for now.
So the "something rather than nothing applies" for her purposes. But I will look into alternatives. Thank you all very much.
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Presspass
Armed & Dangerous
USA
9044 Posts |
Posted - 02/25/2009 : 19:07:07
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| I appreciate your explaining your situation to us. Please, seriously consider that you DO have an "immediate reason" to carry. Trouble doesn't schedule an appointment. It comes when we least expect it to. Folks have fire extinguishers, too, even though they dont really "expect" a fire. Being prepared in advance is so important. |
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Eric
Senior Member
1202 Posts |
Posted - 02/25/2009 : 19:12:34
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quote:
Originally posted by faithnotwork
Thank you all very much for your time and input on this issue.
I take your replies very seriously and have mulled them over in my mind. I currently do not carry, because I have no immediate reason to. Although I am thinking that with the changes in the economy, there will be reason to protect life and property. So this is a prep step.
We'll see where we go from here. My wife is getting her concealed carry license so this was originally one for her to wear on the farm during the day.. since at the time of purchase this was the only gun that she would consider...so we are at the point of nothing or something..you never know.... since she really doesn't want to carry at all, I figured this was a good alternative... for now.
So the "something rather than nothing applies" for her purposes. But I will look into alternatives. Thank you all very much.
Thank you for understanding. I feel I must make a couple further points, if you don't mind.
"I currently do not carry, because I have no immediate reason to."
- this concerns me. For you, not me. No one in the world can predict that day or night they might be attacked/robbed or see it happening to someone else. No one has an "immediate need" when they aren't currently being accosted, and if/when you found yourself in an "immediate need" situation, it would be too late, and you'd be left wishing you had been carrying for that "once-in-a-lifetime" dreadful moment.
You carry because you CAN'T predict the future, not carrying because you're OK right now is shortsighted.
"Although I am thinking that with the changes in the economy, there will be reason to protect life and property."
- Forgive me for this, but I'm quite sure you aren't saying there's no reason to protect life and property RIGHT NOW, right?
If the STHF, there may be MORE CONCERN about protecting life and property, but there is always an ever-present need to protect the life of yourself and those you love.
I'm sure you'd agree on that? |
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faithnotwork
Starting Member
10 Posts |
Posted - 02/25/2009 : 19:53:58
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You all are making sense. That's why I joined this forum - to learn apply and then teach it to some one else.
I will very seriously consider your suggestions on carry and the appropriate firearm.
Thanks all from Cleveland , OHIO! |
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Sean99TJ
Watchdog
USA
3468 Posts |
Posted - 02/25/2009 : 21:58:12
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| The reason I hear most often about why someone "needs" to carry a gun is because they wear flip flops and gym shorts and a tank top because it is hot during the summer. This all goes back to the compromise part....I wear short pants sometimes....they are cutoff jeans with a belt and even my tank top will conceal my hk alright.....I am not wearing the latest OP or IZOD fashions that look cool and wont support my carrying. The only thing I have not figured out is how to run....so I quit running...in about 1979.....lol. Compromize is the key.......figure out how to live while carrying an adequate firearm instead of making excuses why you cant.......380 for a bug....alright. 380 for a primary.....never ok in my book. |
The Second Amendment is in place in case they ignore the others.
The next time Satan reminds you of your past.....Remind him of his future.
Never fight with an old guy.....if you win there is no glory, and if you lose your reputation is shot. |
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Nathan
Big Sky Guy
USA
21639 Posts |
Posted - 02/25/2009 : 22:04:57
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quote:
Originally posted by faithnotwork
I currently do not carry, because I have no immediate reason to.
there is no immediate reason to buckle my seatbelt, but i do it anyway. there is no immediate reason to keep a fire extinguisher in my home, but i do it anyway. there is no immediate reason to lock my door, but i do it anyway. there is no immediate reason to arm my burglar alarm, but i do it anyway. there is no immediate reason to insist that my daughter wears a helmet when she rides her dirt bike, but i do it anyway. there is no immediate reason to buy liability insurance, but i do it anyway. there is no immediate reason to invest into my IRA, but i do it anyway. there is no immediate reason to arm myself, but i do it anyway.
...by now, i think you should be able to see why i (and most others in here) carry. |
Nathan In Montana, carrying a Gen4 Glock 19 loaded with Federal 147 grain +P JHPs carried in a Galco King Tuk thats worn on a Wilderness Instructor's belt.
NRA Certified Instructor, Rifle, Shotgun and Pistol
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Nathan
Big Sky Guy
USA
21639 Posts |
Posted - 02/25/2009 : 22:10:18
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quote:
Originally posted by faithnotwork
Expectations that a gun should have one round stopping power is not realistic.
the unrealistic part is expecting a result. shooting is about probabilities. while no caliber guarantees anything, all calibers have a measureable amount of stopping power potential. service calibers are near the top (right under .44 magnum). the .380 is near the bottom (right under .22lr).
quote:
A hit anywhere from a .380 is a better deterent than a missed shot from a 9mm.
a hit anywhere from a .25 is a better deterrent than a miss from anything, but does that make the .25 a good choice for primary defensive carry? no way.
quote:
skill level ultimately determines your ability to defend yourself.
skill level is obviously critical, but the bullet must still be able to do its job to turn your well placed shot into an incapacitating wound....otherwise you are waiting for bleed-out which is a very bad thing to do. it takes several minutes for a bad guy to bleed out. how will he spend those minutes? shooting back at you perhaps? dont empower the bad guy to decide how he will spend those few minutes. hit him with an adequate service caliber and take his choice away from him.
quote:
if the question was carry with a .380 or dont carry at all
this has never been the question
quote:
I think we all need to keep an open mind about our "requirements" for safety.
we need to use proven tools for the job at hand. |
Nathan In Montana, carrying a Gen4 Glock 19 loaded with Federal 147 grain +P JHPs carried in a Galco King Tuk thats worn on a Wilderness Instructor's belt.
NRA Certified Instructor, Rifle, Shotgun and Pistol
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1911guy5150
Average Member
USA
500 Posts |
Posted - 02/26/2009 : 17:42:42
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| Faithnotwork, it's simply my opinion that the decision to carry is not a light one. The instant you make that decision, it will and should change you. It changes the way you dress, the way you deal with impersonable confrontations and the way you carry yourself in public places. It obligates you to conduct your day to day business in a more careful and aware manner. You're constantly aware of your surroundings and whether or not you are properly concealed from those who could react in fear to the mere sight of your weapon. This is a lifestyle we choose in order to have a better ability in protecting ourselves and those around us. It is for that reason that I would never go to all that trouble and take on that much responsibility to only be "somewhat" armed. You're right, something is better than nothing and if I was ever somehow disarmed of my service caliber pistol, I would jump at any mouse gun that was within reach to get me back to my primary weapon. Give serious thought to what you carry as you will only have one "first shot" in any defensive situation and the chances of that first shot being carefully aimed and well placed are slim to none. If you carry a caliber that can incapacitate the BG at pretty much any point of entry, you're just that much more ahead in the race for your life |
Though I may fall at the hand of an evil man, know that many evil men will fall at my righteous hand.
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ModernGunner
Average Member
USA
822 Posts |
Posted - 02/27/2009 : 15:18:43
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My two "mouse-guns" are a Kel-Tec P-11 (with 3 x 12 round mags) and an AMT Backup .45, (with 3 x 5 round mags).
While I'll agree that there ARE smaller .380's and .25's out there, I find NO problem concealing (though Indiana does not require that) either of these two weapons (and the 2 extra mags) even with shorts, sandals, and a polo shirt.
Of course "anything is better than nothing", no one will disagree. A steel-barreled ball point (e.g., Cross pen) IS better than nothing, if that's ALL you can get your hands on when the SHTF.
But we all KNOW we can't / don't pick the time when that happens, the scumbag does (sorry, I have a hard time with BG, though I do use that term as well. It sounds too nice, and BG's are NOT nice people).
And IF you could, somehow, predict when that tragic moment presents itself, we all KNOW that we don't REALLY want ANY handgun. And no, ya don't want a 10 ga. shotgun or .50 BMG rifle, either. Ya want a... bazooka!
But since we don't know, and apparently the government "frowns" on CCW holders carrying bazookas or LAAW's (can't understand that...), we basically carry handguns.
For me, just MY own philosophy, when I decide what weapon to holster when I leave the home, I kind of think it this way: If I'm able to dress for it, I carry a 4" .44 mag. If I can't for some reason, I carry my 10+1 .45. If not that, the 13+1 .40 S&W. If not that, the 5+1 .45. If not that, the 12+1 9mm.
In other words, I only size "down" as circumstances dictate. Which means for a good portion of the year, I carry a .44 mag. because it'll wear under "3-seasons" clothing. I DO, in honesty, carry the 10+1 .45 quite often, because it's a bit more comfortable to wear IWB and I know I'll be taking my jacket / coat off and on quite a bit.
I DO sacrifice load capacity with the .44 (6 rnds. opposed to 10+1 rounds, not counting extra speedloaders - 4, or magazines - 2), but I feel that's offset by the additional stopping probability offered by the .44.
And for whatever psychological reason, that .44 wheelgun appears to have a greater "deterrent" effect than even a 10+1 .45, at least in my experience. Maybe it's because of the "Dirty Harry" movies. But, there just seems to be something about bringing out that .44 that scares the crap outta BG's.
If that "psychological" deterrent works to end the situation without a shot being fired by anyone, then IMO for that reason alone it's worthwhile to carry the big wheelgun whenever possible. |
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390 Mach I
Junior Member
USA
424 Posts |
Posted - 02/27/2009 : 16:00:50
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Is the definition of a "mouse gun" the size of the weapon or the caliber?
I don't think a small weapon like the AMT Backup are mouse guns if calibered in .45 ACP.
I mean... isn't the whole "Mouse" thing supposed to be about smaller calibers: .22 .25 .32 .380?
Not a tiny gun that packs a whallup like a small calibered gun? IE: AMT backup in .45 ACP or a small gun that shoots .44 mag?
Maybe I am confused... which is likely.
I mean a .22 Derringer is a mouse gun but a .45 Derringer(if such a creature exists. It does.. I checked ) is not IMHO.
Am I wrong?
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"An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life." -Robert A. Heinlein
"Man once surrendering his reason, has no remaining guard against absurdities the most monstrous, and like a ship without rudder, is the sport of every wind." -Thomas Jefferson
"Those who hammer their guns into plows will plow for those who do not.." Thomas Jefferson |
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1911guy5150
Average Member
USA
500 Posts |
Posted - 02/27/2009 : 17:10:06
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quote:
Originally posted by 390 Mach I
Is the definition of a "mouse gun" the size of the weapon or the caliber?
I don't think a small weapon like the AMT Backup are mouse guns if calibered in .45 ACP.
I mean... isn't the whole "Mouse" thing supposed to be about smaller calibers: .22 .25 .32 .380?
Not a tiny gun that packs a whallup like a small calibered gun? IE: AMT backup in .45 ACP or a small gun that shoots .44 mag?
Maybe I am confused... which is likely.
I mean a .22 Derringer is a mouse gun but a .45 Derringer(if such a creature exists. It does.. I checked ) is not IMHO.
Am I wrong?
No, you're not wrong. Mouse guns are typically referring to calibers that are less than "service" calibers. Any .380, .32, .25, or .22 would be considered a "mouse" gun. |
Though I may fall at the hand of an evil man, know that many evil men will fall at my righteous hand.
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Mouse-guns
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