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Nathan
Big Sky Guy
USA
21639 Posts |
 Posted - 06/01/2012 : 10:49:29
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quote:
Originally posted by gunslinger
I don't shoot from reset nor do I see any great advantage if you know what you're doing and have perfected your style of getting rapid follow-up shots, as I have over 40 years.
so essentially you are dismissing something you dont have any experience with. try it, and then make an informed decision on what you like better.
...i would love to spend an afternoon at the range with you. by the time the day is over ill have you renouncing sig bastardizations, shooting from reset, and carry 147 grain jhp 9mm.  |
Nathan In Montana, carrying a Gen4 Glock 19 loaded with Federal 147 grain +P JHPs carried in a Galco King Tuk thats worn on a Wilderness Instructor's belt.
NRA Certified Instructor, Rifle, Shotgun and Pistol
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gunslinger
Advanced Member
USA
2072 Posts |
Posted - 06/01/2012 : 11:15:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Nathan
quote:
Originally posted by gunslinger
I don't shoot from reset nor do I see any great advantage if you know what you're doing and have perfected your style of getting rapid follow-up shots, as I have over 40 years.
so essentially you are dismissing something you dont have any experience with. try it, and then make an informed decision on what you like better.
...i would love to spend an afternoon at the range with you. by the time the day is over ill have you renouncing sig bastardizations, shooting from reset, and carry 147 grain jhp 9mm.
I have tried it, but just don't see the benefit. The advantage of not doing it, as I remarked, is uniform manual of arms no matter what I'm shooting.
I'd love to shoot with you, as well. At the end of the day you'd be ordering your new C3 and Skorpion, plus 2000 rounds of HST 115g +P+ for your Hi-Power... |
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modernswords
Junior Member
USA
428 Posts |
Posted - 06/01/2012 : 14:59:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Nathan
quote:
Originally posted by modernswords
Ok. And I will post one up of the sweeping trigger technique used by Rob Leatham and others.[/quote]youre quoting target shooters. im quoting people who teach you how to shoot to save your life. totally different sciences. i dont know why target shooters do what they do because i have no interest in learning how to kill targets to a stop clock.
[quote]A human cannot accurately take advantage of the milliseconds the reset technique saves.
although there is indeed a notable speed increase, im not limiting my reference to the time difference. [size=6]it also causes less muzzle movement because the unnecessary finger travel doesnt exist.[/size=6]
Argument from fallacy, Nathan. If you train with good technique, you will fall to your training in a high stress situation. The loss of fine motor skills alone makes reset technique with anything but a very, very fasmiliar weapon less than optimum. Have you tried sweeing technique or just taken what works for someone else as the only way?
Less muzzle movement? I can definitely argue against that presumption. If this is the case, these "target shooters" would have a pretty tough time hitting the distant targets. The muzzle must settle at least some between shots, allowing the eye to transmit the triggering action at the best time.
Come on Nathan, you seem to be a reasonable guy most of the time. I will not argue that any technique is better than another, but I will argue that there is more than one effective technique at most anything and that one person may perform better doing things my way over your way and vice versa.
You are not the only firearms/shooting instructor on the planet. |
 
"...he who has no sword, let him sell his garment and buy one."
“A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.”- Amendment II, U.S. Constitution |
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modernswords
Junior Member
USA
428 Posts |
Posted - 06/01/2012 : 15:03:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Nathan
quote:
Originally posted by gunslinger
I don't shoot from reset nor do I see any great advantage if you know what you're doing and have perfected your style of getting rapid follow-up shots, as I have over 40 years.
so essentially you are dismissing something you dont have any experience with. try it, and then make an informed decision on what you like better.
...i would love to spend an afternoon at the range with you. by the time the day is over ill have you renouncing sig bastardizations, shooting from reset, and carry 147 grain jhp 9mm.
Maybe if you spent a day at the course with me, you would reconsider that reset technique with a Glock is not the only way and maybe not the best way for everyone. |
"...he who has no sword, let him sell his garment and buy one."
“A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.”- Amendment II, U.S. Constitution |
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gunslinger
Advanced Member
USA
2072 Posts |
Posted - 06/01/2012 : 15:45:41
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| Here's the thing: trigger pull on a M&P Shield is about .3 inch. From reset, about .16 inch. That additional .14 inch to a good shot with good follow-up is basically meaningless once familiar with the pistol. Not saying that a mili-second or two difference won't happen in time to followup, but as I plan on hitting him the first time, not an issue with me. |
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Nathan
Big Sky Guy
USA
21639 Posts |
Posted - 06/01/2012 : 16:14:08
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quote:
Originally posted by gunslinger
Here's the thing: trigger pull on a M&P Shield is about .3 inch. From reset, about .16 inch.
the M&P has a decent trigger. what is in on an XD?
quote:
That additional .14 inch to a good shot with good follow-up is basically meaningless once familiar with the pistol.
i wouldnt say "meaningless". i can tell a considerable difference in my controlled pairs fired from reset and in my controlled pairs fired by letting the trigger travel fully. are all lethal shots? sure...but there is a difference that you can see for yourself any time you want to. not only are the shots grouped tighter, but utilizing a shot clock will also show you consistantly that they are faster.
...faster followup shots that are more accurate? i dont know how anybody can form a logical argument against that. |
Nathan In Montana, carrying a Gen4 Glock 19 loaded with Federal 147 grain +P JHPs carried in a Galco King Tuk thats worn on a Wilderness Instructor's belt.
NRA Certified Instructor, Rifle, Shotgun and Pistol
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Nathan
Big Sky Guy
USA
21639 Posts |
Posted - 06/01/2012 : 16:20:56
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quote:
Originally posted by modernswords
Argument from fallacy, Nathan.
tighter groups in less time is no fallacy.
quote:
The loss of fine motor skills alone makes reset technique with anything but a very, very fasmiliar weapon less than optimum.
i wouldnt carry a weapon im not "very familiar" with. and this is why i like the felt and heard reset in various guns. it says "im ready to go again", and further trigger movement is a waste of time and creates muzzle movement. now, would it be enough to change the outcome? who knows....but if i have to shoot my way to safety i want every possible advantage.
quote:
Have you tried sweeing technique or just taken what works for someone else as the only way?
...seriously?
quote:
Less muzzle movement? I can definitely argue against that presumption. If this is the case, these "target shooters" would have a pretty tough time hitting the distant targets. The muzzle must settle at least some between shots, allowing the eye to transmit the triggering action at the best time.
ive never heard anyone try to deny the physics involved. the more your fingers have to move, the more you disrupt your muzzle. thats simple and basic physics. will the difference be a "lot"? probably not, but there is a difference.
quote:
Come on Nathan, you seem to be a reasonable guy most of the time. I will not argue that any technique is better than another, but I will argue that there is more than one effective technique at most anything and that one person may perform better doing things my way over your way and vice versa.
i have never stated otherwise.
quote:
You are not the only firearms/shooting instructor on the planet.
c'mon...we're debating ideas. theres no cause to be a dick about anything we've discussed. |
Nathan In Montana, carrying a Gen4 Glock 19 loaded with Federal 147 grain +P JHPs carried in a Galco King Tuk thats worn on a Wilderness Instructor's belt.
NRA Certified Instructor, Rifle, Shotgun and Pistol
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Nathan
Big Sky Guy
USA
21639 Posts |
Posted - 06/01/2012 : 16:23:08
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quote:
Originally posted by modernswords
Maybe if you spent a day at the course with me, you would reconsider that reset technique with a Glock is not the only way and maybe not the best way for everyone.
...i never stated otherwise. my obligation is to make the best recommendations i can make. i have never told you that your way is "bad" or "wrong". if it works for you thats great; my job is to present the information so people will at least make informed choices and decisions. prior to this discussion, i know of at least one person who didnt even know what firing from reset is. now he knows, and is going to give it a try for himself. objective reached. |
Nathan In Montana, carrying a Gen4 Glock 19 loaded with Federal 147 grain +P JHPs carried in a Galco King Tuk thats worn on a Wilderness Instructor's belt.
NRA Certified Instructor, Rifle, Shotgun and Pistol
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modernswords
Junior Member
USA
428 Posts |
Posted - 06/01/2012 : 22:37:48
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[quote]Originally posted by Nathan
[/quote]tighter groups in less time is no fallacy.
And you say this right affter the "target shooter" comment? ...Really?
quote] and further trigger movement is a waste of time and creates muzzle movement. now, would it be enough to change the outcome? who knows....but if i have to shoot my way to safety i want every possible advantage.
You, sir are dead wrong. Trying to move your trigger finger a short distance quickly and consistently is difficult under calm, shooting enjoyment, and nearly impossible under duress. I can quote well trained men with more time in the real snit than me who would agree. Have you ever studied this?
seriously? 
I'm not following...
ive never heard anyone try to deny the physics involved. the more your fingers have to move, the more you disrupt your muzzle. thats simple and basic physics. will the difference be a "lot"? probably not, but there is a difference.
Wrong. It is not pure and simple physics when you involve human fine motor abilities.
quote]c'mon...we're debating ideas. theres no cause to be a dick about anything we've discussed.
[/quote]
Wasn't trying to be a "dick" just hoping you would see your faulty, closed, thought process. AND I do not lower myself to name calling  .
You "inform" people however you wish. If you and those you instruct are comfortable that the evidence and opinion of some and yourself make reset shooting the best technique as a matter of fact, so be it.
As for me, I will do my best to instruct the different techniques with the positives and negatives of each as I and others deemed authoritative see it.
I will close with this bold statement: I would bet a cold beer that I can consistently shoot a half dozen handguns and score higher with the sweeping trigger technique than you can with your reset technique.  I would also bet that if you pay close attention (we both would have to since I would bet we both give technique no thought when shooting after all these years of training and practice) you use the sweeping technique on very close targets when practicing rapid fire using either point shooting or FSP. I have asked folks before going to the range what technique they use and almost every one who claimed to shoot off reset came completely off the trigger on close targets when pushed to fire rapidly.
I will agree to disagree with you. I do not claim to have the best technique or be anywhere near the best combat, defensive or target shooter. I will agree that when using some pistols in certain circumstances, that reset shooting gives excellent results. I'm just saying it isn't always the best for everyone with any firearm.
GOOD DAY SIR! Enjoyed the debate.
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"...he who has no sword, let him sell his garment and buy one."
“A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.”- Amendment II, U.S. Constitution |
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SKIandSKY
Average Member
USA
850 Posts |
Posted - 06/02/2012 : 10:16:28
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| I rather messed this topic up....I should have started it off with, "do you like a heavy double action trigger pull or a light, single action type" or something. I have to say after a few years, I much prefer a true single aciton pull for carry or a silky smooth DAO like on my Kahr P9.....the old P38, Makarov, and even Browning BDM's initial double action pull SUCKS. |
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Nathan
Big Sky Guy
USA
21639 Posts |
Posted - 06/02/2012 : 11:00:52
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quote:
Originally posted by modernswords
And you say this right affter the "target shooter" comment? ...Really?
yes. you are quoting sources who are paid money to market their products in a positive manner.
quote:
You, sir are dead wrong. Trying to move your trigger finger a short distance quickly and consistently is difficult under calm, shooting enjoyment, and nearly impossible under duress.
no, it isnt. moving your finger is the most instinctual aspect of shooting a firearm. i would however, like to know more about how you have re-written basic physics.
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I can quote well trained men with more time in the real snit than me who would agree.
please, do so. i would like to see these quotes.
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Have you ever studied this?
extensively. but im not listening to paid spokespeople who work for manufacturers. im listening to people who teach others how to shoot to save their lives.
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Wrong. It is not pure and simple physics when you involve human fine motor abilities.
thats exactly what im saying! no human can move his finger while keeping his hand perfectly still while its extended holding a handgun. the bottom line is the more he moves his finger, the more the muzzle will move. i dont know how anyone can make an argument otherwise with a straight face.
quote:
Wasn't trying to be a "dick"
yes, you were but thats ok, lets move forward.
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just hoping you would see your faulty, closed, thought process.
basic physics isnt a thought process, its a proven science.
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If you and those you instruct are comfortable that the evidence and opinion of some and yourself make reset shooting the best technique as a matter of fact, so be it.
stop putting words in my mouth. i never said it was the best for everyone. i simply stated it causes less muscle movement and makes for faster follow up shots. thats the simply physics of the practice.
quote:
I can consistently shoot a half dozen handguns and score higher with the sweeping trigger technique than you can with your reset technique.
but of course you can. everybody on the internet can.
quote:
I would also bet that if you pay close attention (we both would have to since I would bet we both give technique no thought when shooting after all these years of training and practice) you use the sweeping technique on very close targets when practicing rapid fire using either point shooting or FSP.
you would lose that bet. |
Nathan In Montana, carrying a Gen4 Glock 19 loaded with Federal 147 grain +P JHPs carried in a Galco King Tuk thats worn on a Wilderness Instructor's belt.
NRA Certified Instructor, Rifle, Shotgun and Pistol
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Nathan
Big Sky Guy
USA
21639 Posts |
Posted - 06/02/2012 : 13:26:52
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ere are some good videos explaining what shooting from trigger reset means, and how it benefits the shooter.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bcbhdO5t-D8 <-- he even addresses slapping the trigger by some competitors. he also demonstrates on an XD and you can see that there is simply more movement shooting the XD from reset (which was my exact reason for entering my objection to start wtih).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TVPHub3-Mrg <-- TGO on trigger reset techniques
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5fvA1lNarOI <-- short reset trigger on sig upgrade. people pay for this upgrade because it improves their shooting.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ysa50-plo48 <-- while not dicussed, in the final seconds you can _clearly_ see todd jarrett shooting from reset.
this isnt anything new or unknown and there is an abundance of videos promoting shooting from reset. i cannot find a single video promoting unnecessary trigger travel except in the case of new shooters and when talking total newbies a lot doesnt apply. |
Nathan In Montana, carrying a Gen4 Glock 19 loaded with Federal 147 grain +P JHPs carried in a Galco King Tuk thats worn on a Wilderness Instructor's belt.
NRA Certified Instructor, Rifle, Shotgun and Pistol
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modernswords
Junior Member
USA
428 Posts |
Posted - 06/02/2012 : 14:32:42
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We could do this all week, Nathan. Cognitive dissonance. You should always question what you "know".
I will end by saying that I know quite a bit about fine motor skills and brain function. I have not "re-written" physics. It's a very large part of my formal education and practiced experience. Honestly, the trigger-pull technique argument is moot without proper grip. I've seen many who serve squeeze the trigger with their whole hand, unable to hit the 7 yard target. One reason I am an advocate of a very tight grip. I'm pretty sure you are familiar with how this causes misses, especially under stress. Many other factors come into play as well. I know you know.
The problem with all this is that when the human body is faced with real violence it reacts in ways that are in no way favorable to fine motor skill retention. It is unavoidable at some level. The psychology and physiology of this is what I fear you are not considering. Physics take a back seat to these other factors when the stuff hits the fan. Good training can only reduce this at best and never duplicate a real situation. I have seen it. People who were given countless hours of training completely froze when confronted with real stress that could cause them emotional or physical pain. Loss of gross motor skills, much less the very fine ones used in the proper application of reset shooting. This is the point I am trying to make (obviously not very well).
You are the resident expert and authority here. I respect your opinion and your position. Reset shooting is certainly a single, very good way to shoot. |
"...he who has no sword, let him sell his garment and buy one."
“A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.”- Amendment II, U.S. Constitution |
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Nathan
Big Sky Guy
USA
21639 Posts |
Posted - 06/02/2012 : 16:38:07
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| aw shoot, there are lots of resident "experts" here. i myself am no "expert", i simply know how to listen to those who are. if nothing else, i hope to accomplish one thing on this topic; i want to create enough interest to get people to try this for themselves and truly learn to shoot from reset. im not talking about shooting off a magazine or a box of ammunition; im talking about training with this method until you have absolute confidence in it. once you (collectively) do i bet you never go back....but if you do, at least your decision is an informed one that you arrived at after trying my recommendations and seeing for yourself. |
Nathan In Montana, carrying a Gen4 Glock 19 loaded with Federal 147 grain +P JHPs carried in a Galco King Tuk thats worn on a Wilderness Instructor's belt.
NRA Certified Instructor, Rifle, Shotgun and Pistol
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BurgerBoy
Starting Member
USA
41 Posts |
Posted - 06/24/2012 : 10:15:59
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| I like a pistol that is DA/SA. I'm much more accurate in the SA mode. |
Vietnam Veteran
Bersa Thunder 9 Ultra Compact Pro.
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Single or double action?
