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hpurey
Junior Member
USA
277 Posts |
 Posted - 09/20/2009 : 19:30:44
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| You just don't see this info on any other forums.. I just hit 1 year as a member here on 9/11 and have lost count on how many times I get to this carry guide and everytime I get here I read the whole thing all over again. |
Glock 19
Kel-Tec PF9
KNOW Guns,KNOW Peace,KNOW Safety; NO Guns,NO Peace,NO Safety
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Biggs23
Starting Member
USA
46 Posts |
Posted - 09/26/2009 : 12:15:49
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I've just recently joined the forum and have read through many of the articles and threads here. This was a good write up and a good read, especially for those only beginning to think about CC and self-protection.
I would, however, edit the write-up to substitute an Australian Shepard for the inside dog over a pom. Aussies... well, there is no dog more alert than an Aussie, and I'd almost rather get shot at then try to try to hurt the master of a pissed off Aussie. |
zerO is the .25 caliber of presidents; technically better than nothing, but I won't count on him to protect my family, my rights, my life, or my freedom. |
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coyotefst13
New Member
USA
58 Posts |
Posted - 11/05/2009 : 19:22:01
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quote:
First off, you don't want any type of frangible handgun round
I have a problem with this statement. When you talk about penetration, you also have to talk about kinetic energy and energy transfer. The best thing you want to happen is the bullet goes straight through the target and drop down on the other side. Anything after that is a waste.
Frangible rounds impart almost ALL of there energy into the medium and creates a massive force wave. This acts like a bat hitting you in the chest.
We've all seen varmint bullets hit prairie dogs. They explode!
I use frangible rounds at home as we live in an apartment complex with big windows. I do carry JHP in the heaviest I can get out and about. (I do agree with your other hypotheses)
I know of someone personally who has used frangible rounds to stop someone. My CCW instructor. He used DRT ammo and it does mean Dead Right There.... He praised the stuff.
So please, all remember, it's what are you trying to accomplish and then choose your ammo from there. It's just like it was when I was in the Army calling for fire. We Had different rounds to accomplish different tasks. All ammo decisions should be made from that basis.
Thanks for staying and listening to my $.02 |
Stoeger cougar 8040
Taurus 617 .357
Ruger LCP
"A prisoner's chains are not so heavy a burden as a soldier's pack." Dwight D. Eisenhower
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Nathan
Big Sky Guy
USA
12721 Posts |
Posted - 11/05/2009 : 19:41:36
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quote:
Originally posted by coyotefst13
Frangible rounds impart almost ALL of there energy into the medium and creates a massive force wave.
no, it does not. there simply is not enough energy in any handgun load for energy to be a factor. at all. dont buy into the marketing hype and pay attention to true ballistic science.
CLICK HERE and look at the pictures for yourself. 3-4" penetration is nothing.
no quality service caliber JHP is going to penetrate 100% in an average size typical adult torso, therefore you are getting 100% energy dump in a JHP as well. service caliber handgun energy isnt significant enough to make any difference at all, and a frangible load isnt going to penetrate adequately. |
  
"...all power is inherent in the people; that they may exercise it by themselves; that it is their right and duty to be at all times armed." -Thomas Jefferson
"In the foolishness of my heart, I thought that the truth would be a defense." - Harold Fish |
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coyotefst13
New Member
USA
58 Posts |
Posted - 11/06/2009 : 19:35:17
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You can't say 600 ft/lbs is not a factor. And we are talking about two side of the same coin. You are focused on penetration. Which is a valid argument. I don't disagree with your theory. It's sound and well thought out. I just didn't agree with your statement about them never being used.
A bat doesn't penetrate, but it'll break your ribs or arm and can cause internal bleeding. A bullet will be stopped by a bullet resistant vest, but you'll still have a bruise and maybe a cracked rib. (Kinetic energy again)
Like I said in my post. Varmint rounds are frangible, you see the results. You don't need a lot of penetration to impart the kinetic energy.
quote:
caliber handgun energy isnt significant enough to make any difference at all
For this one, my .270 win at 400 yards has 1180 ft/lbs of force. My usual outside carry ammo at muzzle has around 450 (180 grn JHP). I have taken pronghorns in Western ND at around 400 yards and they still died.
And I don't use those safety slugs. I use either DRT brand or Fiocchi Sintered Frangible. Much better and more modern than the old slugs.
Thanks for the debate.     |
Stoeger cougar 8040
Taurus 617 .357
Ruger LCP
"A prisoner's chains are not so heavy a burden as a soldier's pack." Dwight D. Eisenhower
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Nathan
Big Sky Guy
USA
12721 Posts |
Posted - 11/07/2009 : 11:05:22
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your objective is to stop the fight by removing the will to fight from your attacker. you have voluntary removal of will where the bad guy chooses on his own to cease his attack, and you have involuntary removal of will where the trauma inflicted is such that the attacker cannot physically continue to attack you despite his will. 600ft. lbs is not in and if itself going to stop a fight involuntarily no matter where you hit your attacker. for that matter, the impact of the bat doesnt stop a fight either no matter how hard it it swung. despite the massive energy generated in the swinging, if the impact doesnt inflict massive truama its not going to stop a fight by any means other than voluntary. its not the energy that ends the fight, its the level of trauma created. you do not want it to be the choice of your attacker when he ends his attack. if you depend upon his good graces you are likely to find yourself dead. he may eventually die from his injuries as well, but only after he is finished imposing his will on you.
frangible rounds in service caliber handguns simply do not penetrate adequately to strike anything vital to create the trauma needed to remove the will of your attacker to attack you. i suppose if you shoot him in the neck it could work but who wants to depend on a neck shot? your attacker may choose to stop his attack after being hit with a frangible round, but it is irresponsible to advise anyone to depend upon the good graces of the attacker who has already demonstrated his willingness to kill you.
if frangible rounds offered adequate stopping power potential, surely they would have found acceptance in law enforcement. they simply have not for one reason: with rare exception they are incapable of inflicting incapacitating wounds. |
"...all power is inherent in the people; that they may exercise it by themselves; that it is their right and duty to be at all times armed." -Thomas Jefferson
"In the foolishness of my heart, I thought that the truth would be a defense." - Harold Fish |
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Nathan
Big Sky Guy
USA
12721 Posts |
Posted - 11/07/2009 : 11:09:24
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quote:
Originally posted by coyotefst13
my .270 win at 400 yards has 1180 ft/lbs of force. My usual outside carry ammo at muzzle has around 450 (180 grn JHP). I have taken pronghorns in Western ND at around 400 yards and they still died.
i dont understand the comparison you are trying to draw here. its not about making something die, it is about immediately and involuntarily removing the will to fight. you can shoot your attacker in the gut with a .25 and he will eventually bleed-out and die, but he will have 15 minutes to continue his attack against you first. read page 1 of this thread and pay attention to my example of the moros tribesmen. after 6 solid hits from the .38 long colt they would eventually bleed-out, but typically after beheading the US soldier who shot them. after switching back to the .45 long colt this stopped happening because the .45 long colt was capable of inflicting an incapacitating wound. this is documented US history and clearly makes the point i am making. |
"...all power is inherent in the people; that they may exercise it by themselves; that it is their right and duty to be at all times armed." -Thomas Jefferson
"In the foolishness of my heart, I thought that the truth would be a defense." - Harold Fish |
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Carry Guide
