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hpurey
Junior Member
USA
376 Posts |
 Posted - 09/20/2009 : 19:30:44
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| You just don't see this info on any other forums.. I just hit 1 year as a member here on 9/11 and have lost count on how many times I get to this carry guide and everytime I get here I read the whole thing all over again. |
Glock 19
Kel-Tec PF9
KNOW Guns,KNOW Peace,KNOW Safety; NO Guns,NO Peace,NO Safety
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Biggs23
New Member
USA
50 Posts |
Posted - 09/26/2009 : 12:15:49
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I've just recently joined the forum and have read through many of the articles and threads here. This was a good write up and a good read, especially for those only beginning to think about CC and self-protection.
I would, however, edit the write-up to substitute an Australian Shepard for the inside dog over a pom. Aussies... well, there is no dog more alert than an Aussie, and I'd almost rather get shot at then try to try to hurt the master of a pissed off Aussie. |
zerO is the .25 caliber of presidents; technically better than nothing, but I won't count on him to protect my family, my rights, my life, or my freedom. |
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coyotefst13
New Member
USA
58 Posts |
Posted - 11/05/2009 : 19:22:01
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quote:
First off, you don't want any type of frangible handgun round
I have a problem with this statement. When you talk about penetration, you also have to talk about kinetic energy and energy transfer. The best thing you want to happen is the bullet goes straight through the target and drop down on the other side. Anything after that is a waste.
Frangible rounds impart almost ALL of there energy into the medium and creates a massive force wave. This acts like a bat hitting you in the chest.
We've all seen varmint bullets hit prairie dogs. They explode!
I use frangible rounds at home as we live in an apartment complex with big windows. I do carry JHP in the heaviest I can get out and about. (I do agree with your other hypotheses)
I know of someone personally who has used frangible rounds to stop someone. My CCW instructor. He used DRT ammo and it does mean Dead Right There.... He praised the stuff.
So please, all remember, it's what are you trying to accomplish and then choose your ammo from there. It's just like it was when I was in the Army calling for fire. We Had different rounds to accomplish different tasks. All ammo decisions should be made from that basis.
Thanks for staying and listening to my $.02 |
Stoeger cougar 8040
Taurus 617 .357
Ruger LCP
"A prisoner's chains are not so heavy a burden as a soldier's pack." Dwight D. Eisenhower
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Nathan
Big Sky Guy
USA
15549 Posts |
Posted - 11/05/2009 : 19:41:36
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quote:
Originally posted by coyotefst13
Frangible rounds impart almost ALL of there energy into the medium and creates a massive force wave.
no, it does not. there simply is not enough energy in any handgun load for energy to be a factor. at all. dont buy into the marketing hype and pay attention to true ballistic science.
CLICK HERE and look at the pictures for yourself. 3-4" penetration is nothing.
no quality service caliber JHP is going to penetrate 100% in an average size typical adult torso, therefore you are getting 100% energy dump in a JHP as well. service caliber handgun energy isnt significant enough to make any difference at all, and a frangible load isnt going to penetrate adequately. |
 
"In the foolishness of my heart, I thought that the truth would be a defense." - Harold Fish |
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coyotefst13
New Member
USA
58 Posts |
Posted - 11/06/2009 : 19:35:17
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You can't say 600 ft/lbs is not a factor. And we are talking about two side of the same coin. You are focused on penetration. Which is a valid argument. I don't disagree with your theory. It's sound and well thought out. I just didn't agree with your statement about them never being used.
A bat doesn't penetrate, but it'll break your ribs or arm and can cause internal bleeding. A bullet will be stopped by a bullet resistant vest, but you'll still have a bruise and maybe a cracked rib. (Kinetic energy again)
Like I said in my post. Varmint rounds are frangible, you see the results. You don't need a lot of penetration to impart the kinetic energy.
quote:
caliber handgun energy isnt significant enough to make any difference at all
For this one, my .270 win at 400 yards has 1180 ft/lbs of force. My usual outside carry ammo at muzzle has around 450 (180 grn JHP). I have taken pronghorns in Western ND at around 400 yards and they still died.
And I don't use those safety slugs. I use either DRT brand or Fiocchi Sintered Frangible. Much better and more modern than the old slugs.
Thanks for the debate.     |
Stoeger cougar 8040
Taurus 617 .357
Ruger LCP
"A prisoner's chains are not so heavy a burden as a soldier's pack." Dwight D. Eisenhower
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Nathan
Big Sky Guy
USA
15549 Posts |
Posted - 11/07/2009 : 11:05:22
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your objective is to stop the fight by removing the will to fight from your attacker. you have voluntary removal of will where the bad guy chooses on his own to cease his attack, and you have involuntary removal of will where the trauma inflicted is such that the attacker cannot physically continue to attack you despite his will. 600ft. lbs is not in and if itself going to stop a fight involuntarily no matter where you hit your attacker. for that matter, the impact of the bat doesnt stop a fight either no matter how hard it it swung. despite the massive energy generated in the swinging, if the impact doesnt inflict massive truama its not going to stop a fight by any means other than voluntary. its not the energy that ends the fight, its the level of trauma created. you do not want it to be the choice of your attacker when he ends his attack. if you depend upon his good graces you are likely to find yourself dead. he may eventually die from his injuries as well, but only after he is finished imposing his will on you.
frangible rounds in service caliber handguns simply do not penetrate adequately to strike anything vital to create the trauma needed to remove the will of your attacker to attack you. i suppose if you shoot him in the neck it could work but who wants to depend on a neck shot? your attacker may choose to stop his attack after being hit with a frangible round, but it is irresponsible to advise anyone to depend upon the good graces of the attacker who has already demonstrated his willingness to kill you.
if frangible rounds offered adequate stopping power potential, surely they would have found acceptance in law enforcement. they simply have not for one reason: with rare exception they are incapable of inflicting incapacitating wounds. |
"In the foolishness of my heart, I thought that the truth would be a defense." - Harold Fish |
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Nathan
Big Sky Guy
USA
15549 Posts |
Posted - 11/07/2009 : 11:09:24
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quote:
Originally posted by coyotefst13
my .270 win at 400 yards has 1180 ft/lbs of force. My usual outside carry ammo at muzzle has around 450 (180 grn JHP). I have taken pronghorns in Western ND at around 400 yards and they still died.
i dont understand the comparison you are trying to draw here. its not about making something die, it is about immediately and involuntarily removing the will to fight. you can shoot your attacker in the gut with a .25 and he will eventually bleed-out and die, but he will have 15 minutes to continue his attack against you first. read page 1 of this thread and pay attention to my example of the moros tribesmen. after 6 solid hits from the .38 long colt they would eventually bleed-out, but typically after beheading the US soldier who shot them. after switching back to the .45 long colt this stopped happening because the .45 long colt was capable of inflicting an incapacitating wound. this is documented US history and clearly makes the point i am making. |
"In the foolishness of my heart, I thought that the truth would be a defense." - Harold Fish |
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seiko53
Starting Member
USA
10 Posts |
Posted - 11/30/2009 : 09:20:24
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| Although I spent 22 years in the military, I am new to the world of concealed carry. I think the topics you covered are the most complete set of guide lines anyone new to carrying concealed, (or as a refresher course for old timers)could have. I found it concise, to the point and refreshing. Thank you very much for the time you took to do this. |
Ed Arnold |
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rocketgeezer
Junior Member
USA
105 Posts |
Posted - 01/03/2010 : 19:19:52
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| Very informative Nathan, one thing is Rule#1, another forum did not approve of my veiw's on that, they seemed to think being 100% legal was more important than protecting yourself, being a relativly new CCW permit holder (less than a year)I'm not exactly sure how to handle this? you can e-mail me on this if you want, I would appreciate it |
you can never have to many guns or to much ammo |
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lynne66nc
Starting Member
USA
8 Posts |
Posted - 01/23/2010 : 20:16:27
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I don't know how to ask this question without sounding like an idiot..so I guess I'll have to be an idiot and ask it anyway....
In your statement you indicate the good and bad points of the 22LR
22 LR
Good:
Weapons are small.
Ammunition is cheap and plentiful.
Adequate as a backup weapon.
Bad:
Not adequate as a primary weapon.
If it's adequate as a Backup weapon, why isn't it adequate as a primary weapon? I mean, if all you have left is your back up weapon doesn't it then BECOME your primary weapon when you have to use it?
I just don't undertand why something would be rated good as a back up weapon if it isn't rated good as a primary. Seems contradictory to me. |
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Owl1024
Starting Member
USA
38 Posts |
Posted - 01/24/2010 : 00:53:15
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Nathan, I recently bought a S&W SW9VE as my first pistol. (I think you know that part.) I recently went to the range and ran 50 rounds of Blazer TMJ and 50 rounds of Remington HPJ through it, with only one FTF, a Remington HPJ. Both boxes of ammo were 124 Gr., as I wanted to start training myself with/getting used to any 'muzzle flip'/recoil of something stronger than 90 or 115 Gr. ammo. 124 Gr. Was very manageable. That said, I recalled an earlier post of yours where you suggested 147 Grain would be the only/minimum effective weight effective for home defense. Correct me if I'm wrong. Anyway, taking what I believe was your advice, and wanting to have a little fun finding out what my gun likes to eat, I've recently gone a little crazy and ordered the following: '
CCI® Clean-Fire® 9mm 147 gr. TMJ 50 rds.
Speer® Lawman® Clean-Fire® 9mm Luger 147 Gr. TMJ 50 rds.
Federal® Premium® Hydra - Shok® 9mm 147 Gr HSJHP 20 rds.
I might even have ordered some Hornady. It's early; my sleep cycle sucks; I don't recall at this time.
I also ordered a SmartCarry® Security Model holster for my SW9VE.
Your opinions on my orders are greatly appreciated. |
S&W SW9VE
Date of Manufacture: April, 2009 (latest model), per S&W e-mail inquiry.
16+1 magazine x 2
Independent
Liberal
NRA Member
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PKL
Advanced Member
USA
2867 Posts |
Posted - 01/24/2010 : 07:53:27
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quote:
Originally posted by lynne66nc
I don't know how to ask this question without sounding like an idiot..so I guess I'll have to be an idiot and ask it anyway....
In your statement you indicate the good and bad points of the 22LR
22 LR
Good:
Weapons are small.
Ammunition is cheap and plentiful.
Adequate as a backup weapon.
Bad:
Not adequate as a primary weapon.
If it's adequate as a Backup weapon, why isn't it adequate as a primary weapon? I mean, if all you have left is your back up weapon doesn't it then BECOME your primary weapon when you have to use it?
I just don't undertand why something would be rated good as a back up weapon if it isn't rated good as a primary. Seems contradictory to me.
I believe you are correct, that a back up weapon should be as good as a primary. If you were in a situation where your primary weapon was out of ammo, or no longer functioning, you would definitely want a "real" weapon as your back up.
I bet if Nathan went back and made some changes to his carry guide he would take out that .22LR is adequate as a backup.
On this forum we more or less all agree even back up weapons need to be in service calibers, ie Keltec PF9 or Walther PPS. |
Springfield TRP Stainless Steel
And lots of other guns
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Nathan
Big Sky Guy
USA
15549 Posts |
Posted - 01/24/2010 : 11:18:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Owl1024
I recalled an earlier post of yours where you suggested 147 Grain would be the only/minimum effective weight effective for home defense.
its not the only effective choice, but it is the superior choice for both penetration and expansion. CLICK HERE. |
"In the foolishness of my heart, I thought that the truth would be a defense." - Harold Fish |
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Nathan
Big Sky Guy
USA
15549 Posts |
Posted - 01/24/2010 : 11:58:16
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quote:
Originally posted by lynne66nc
If it's adequate as a Backup weapon, why isn't it adequate as a primary weapon? I mean, if all you have left is your back up weapon doesn't it then BECOME your primary weapon when you have to use it?
I just don't undertand why something would be rated good as a back up weapon if it isn't rated good as a primary. Seems contradictory to me.
my comment was not limited to the .22. i also included the .32 and .380 in my backup recommendation. everything related to carry is about probabilities and a compromise of one way or another. you have to factor in known ballistic science, circumstance, dress, and of course the human elements involved and then weigh the benefits against the risks to form your defensive plan. with the many small service caliber weapons available today there is no reason why anyone cannot dress around a primary weapon in a service caliber, but dressing around two service caliber weapons is just not realistic for most. in fact, most wont carry a backup weapon at all. chances are extremely slim that you will need to ever draw your primary weapon; chances are even slimmer that it will fail and you will need to draw your backup weapon. this in mind, i am willing to give the smaller calibers a pass as backup weapons but not as primary weapons. in a perfect world i would carry a glock 20 as primary and another glock 20 as backup, but in the real world there has to be compromise made.
my recommendations and beliefs are substantiated by the policy and procedure of dang near every LE/military agency in this country. a soldier for example, carries a carbine as his primary weapon. his secondary/backup weapon (the handgun on his side), while a service caliber, is nowhere near as effective as his primary weapon. most LE agencies have approved primary weapon lists that differ from their approved backup weapon lists. i know of no LE agency that authorizes the carry of a .380 as a primary weapon but many (if not most) authorize it for a backup weapon. i also believe the .22 to be adequate for backup purposes and would in fact trust it more than .32 or .380 for backup purposes because the .22 is a penetrating little bastard and if you have to choose, ill take penetration over expansion because even the biggest bullet does nothing if it lacks adequate penetration. |
"In the foolishness of my heart, I thought that the truth would be a defense." - Harold Fish |
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Owl1024
Starting Member
USA
38 Posts |
Posted - 01/24/2010 : 16:45:53
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| I stand corrected. Thanks again, Nathan. |
S&W SW9VE
Date of Manufacture: April, 2009 (latest model), per S&W e-mail inquiry.
16+1 magazine x 2
Independent
Liberal
NRA Member
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hollie1
New Member
USA
86 Posts |
Posted - 01/30/2010 : 23:48:00
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Nathan,
It some cases its rather difficult for one to carry a larger caliber weapon! With it being concealed! Yes I know the larger the caliber the better the thug goes down with one shot maybe two!
Yes still being new to the CCW permit.I had a Glock 26 I Liked it BUT it was just to big for me to carry,I was heavy,grips were to large !I could shoot it,load it,ready it for firing!It was just big!
After trying & trying "we" hubby & I felt I needed to look for another option!
Thats when we went for the Taurus 709. It was easyer all the way around. It worked great no trouble with it! But it fits me better.I can & do carry it in a Belly Band in the small of my back!Its not uncomfortable at all.It feels good there.I do carry a back up.Yes its on my ankle its a smaller so called mouse gun,the Taurus 738! I like it also and it works great too.No problems out of either weapon.So if they have been trust worthy from the get go,would they not continue to do so with proper care? I may need to fire 2 rounds maybe a third,but it will be dead center! That I'm sure of!
In order for you to have good control of your weapon I really think in some cases you have to go with what fits you.Don't you think that sometimes we have to choose a weapon that fits our hands & fit our body frame?I'm barely 4'ft 9",,weight 110 lbs! I can shop in the kids section if I want! I'm not about to wear clothes that R 2 sizes to big to cover a weapon thats to big for my hands and frame!Add to this back & health issues plus being an ampute'! So I need to keep my weight under control & watch what I carry!
Guys normally have larger hands R bigger framed.What my hubby carries is easyer concealed due to his size 205 lb. & his height 6ft. I can and do fire ALL the weapons we own.I really believe that if a couple are both in to guns & go to the range they should.
I will not carry a weapon in my purse.I think if at all possible it should always be on your person,ready,with Hot Ammo just encase & that back up weapon ready if need be!
I've read down thought the rules you posted! Agree & do follow a good majority of them!
Alot of the advice is excellent & I do agree whole heartedly.I'm not downing any of it! But for women who are smaller framed some of what you reccomend just don't seem to fit us!
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Nathan
Big Sky Guy
USA
15549 Posts |
Posted - 01/31/2010 : 10:45:57
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quote:
Originally posted by hollie1
It some cases its rather difficult for one to carry a larger caliber weapon!
your carry weapon should be comforting; not necessarily comfortable. that said, ten years ago it was much harder to conceal service caliber weapons than it is today. there are many service caliber weapons available that really arent any larger overall than mouse-gun calibers. anybody can conceal a walter PPS or the keltec 9mms.
quote:
we went for the Taurus 709.
a small, easlily concealable service caliber. good choice, and it makes my point. you can carry a service caliber. you first must decide that you will not trade security for convenience. after that, its much easier to carry adequate weaponry.
quote:
In order for you to have good control of your weapon I really think in some cases you have to go with what fits you.
certainly. and thanks to modern weaponry you can do just that and carry a service caliber. |
"In the foolishness of my heart, I thought that the truth would be a defense." - Harold Fish |
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Owl1024
Starting Member
USA
38 Posts |
Posted - 01/31/2010 : 10:57:37
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| As I wait for my state to approve my CCW application, I practice CCW'ing in my apartment. I have a S&W SW9VE & walk around my apartment with it in a SmartCarry holster. The gun seems a bit large for CCW, but I continue to practice. I wonder if I should try a shoulder holster with this pistol. |
S&W SW9VE
Date of Manufacture: April, 2009 (latest model), per S&W e-mail inquiry.
16+1 magazine x 2
Independent
Liberal
NRA Member
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ctnv
Starting Member
USA
5 Posts |
Posted - 02/06/2010 : 22:28:55
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| We must have a federal law that will allow a CCW holder of a permit/lic to carry anywhere in the USA without state/local laws that punish someone. I have emailed the NRA and I know they are working on it but it makes no sense. My drivers lic is recognized in all states and other countries for that matter but not my CCW. My wife and I hold CCW's in two states, CT and NV. We are fairly new to CCW and I find it frustrating to be in NV near the tri-state area and cannot ride my motorcycle into CA if carrying due to their very restrictive laws. When in CT I have the same problem with NY,MA,RI. Also driving cross country leaves my wife and I vulnerable if not able to legally carry in all the states we pass through. |
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Dutchie_in_Mobile
Starting Member
USA
16 Posts |
Posted - 02/12/2010 : 21:52:53
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Dear Nathan,
Thank you so much for your efforts. You don't know how much this helps us new to CCW (at least it does me....).
I recently joined and came across this article.
I am definitely going to read this all the way and make sure that whatever my setup(s) is/are going to be it will adhere to all you stated in here.
To get started and give something back to this forum I took the liberty to download the post and turn it into an easily down loadable PDF file for anyone that wants to print it or read it online..... I even replaced the missing images with ones that I thought you meant to be there (or at least similar....).
Let me know if you want this to be provided to the rest of the community and let me know how I can upload it or provide it somehow
Thanks again and I hope to be back often with questions to have answered....
Regards, Eric. |
"I have a photogenic memory....: I may not remember much, but what I do remember looks really good on camera!"
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- Rossi 462 .357 Magnum/.38 Special, stainless
- Springfield Armory XD40 subcompact, black
- Marlin XL7 .270, black synthetic
- SIG Sauer Mosquito .22LR, black (recently) |
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jimmypop
New Member
USA
54 Posts |
Posted - 02/17/2010 : 15:01:33
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| I liked your thread. I learned a few new things as well as refreshed a few things. I would add in to the practice routine one thing: malfunction drills using snap caps. Like having someone load snap caps in with regular rounds while at a range that you can do so, ex outdoor or own property. |
Beretta PX4 9mm :)
Beretta U22 Neos .22 LR
Taurus PT845 .45 ACP :D
Glock 23 RTF Gen 3 .40 S&W
H&R .223 Varmaint |
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Dutchie_in_Mobile
Starting Member
USA
16 Posts |
Posted - 02/18/2010 : 17:53:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Nathan
robert,
thank you sir. i hope to be publishing an advanced guide soon to pick up where the beginners guide left off.
Dear Nathan,
I have read through the entire thread here but haven't seen the "Advanced guide" that you referred to here....  Any idea if and when you'll be doing this?
If you need any help to format, edit and turn it into a PDF file for download and read offline let me know I am more than willing to help. I was a tech. writer for about 5 years so I have some skills I can bring to the table.
I am looking forward to more of your insights in this topic! I am a newbie and always eager to learn.
Let us know what your plans are.
Regards, Eric. |
"I have a photogenic memory....: I may not remember much, but what I do remember looks really good on camera!"
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- Rossi 462 .357 Magnum/.38 Special, stainless
- Springfield Armory XD40 subcompact, black
- Marlin XL7 .270, black synthetic
- SIG Sauer Mosquito .22LR, black (recently) |
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ripster
Starting Member
USA
19 Posts |
Posted - 02/24/2010 : 09:50:09
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| Nathan.. Great article, made my wife read it twice.(There will be a 10 question quiz at the end of the class.) |
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TexasRaider
New Member
USA
89 Posts |
Posted - 03/01/2010 : 14:15:57
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| Great Article. My question: I carry the XDM 9mm. All ammo I find locally is 115 grain ball point. Is this what I should be shooting for target practice? Is the XDM rated for 147 grain or the +P loads? |
"Lets Roll" Todd Beamer:09/11/2001
Springfield Armory XDM 9 (19+1 w/tactical light)
Glock 19 (w/Crimson Trace Laser Grips)
Ruger Blackhawk 357 Magnum
Remmington 700 BDL 30-06
Remmington 1100 20g.
Kershaw Ken Onion |
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Joshua
Advanced Member
2871 Posts |
Posted - 04/07/2010 : 12:54:36
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quote:
Originally posted by TexasRaider
Great Article. My question: I carry the XDM 9mm. All ammo I find locally is 115 grain ball point. Is this what I should be shooting for target practice? Is the XDM rated for 147 grain or the +P loads?
115 grain ball ammo (fmj) is definitely target ammo. It is even referred to as target or range ammo on Winchester white boxes.
The pistol DOES NOT have to be "rated" for 147gr loads. It is just that some lower cost 'pocket' pistols don't cycle 147gr reliably. You can most certainly shoot 147gr loads in you XDM. If you ever carry the XDM for self defense 147gr JHP jacketed hollow points should be your first choice if they are available.
I have read that the XDM45 is +P and +P+ rated. It has a fully supported ramp.
The XDM9mm has a fully supported ramp and it is part of the same series so I would think it is +P rated. You may want to call SA just to be sure though.
Hope this helps! |
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Carry Guide
