Favorite backup guns

Defensive carry handguns.
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Ohio9
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Favorite backup guns

Postby Ohio9 » Sat Mar 07, 2015 5:56 pm

So among those of us who like backup guns, what are your favorites, and what methods do you use? I generally use ankle or pocket carry, since I don't like putting extra weight on my waistand.

For revolvers, I've rotate between a Ruger LCRx and S&W36, both of which are .38 caliber

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Generally the 36 gets more duty time because there are more holster options available for it. The LCRx is such a new gun that holster companies have not caught up with it. I still have not found a suitable ankle rig for it.

For autoloaders, it's a choice between my Kahr PM9 and Ruger LCP

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Generally I go with the PM9 because of the 9mm over .380, but sometimes I'll pick the LCP because its lighter weight. Also I don't generally use the PM9 for pocket carry because its annoyingly large magazine release button can and does accidentally get pressed in by accident in such a set up.

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Re: Favorite backup guns

Postby yankeejib » Sat Mar 07, 2015 6:30 pm

Any j-frame. Carry it anywhere.
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Ohio9
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Re: Favorite backup guns

Postby Ohio9 » Sun Mar 08, 2015 1:09 pm

yankeejib wrote:Any j-frame. Carry it anywhere.


Okay I've head this term a lot, but have never found any definitions. So what exactly is a J-frame?

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Re: Favorite backup guns

Postby Pickwick » Sun Mar 08, 2015 1:12 pm

Smith Model 60/ankle holster.

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Re: Favorite backup guns

Postby Nathan » Sun Mar 08, 2015 1:32 pm

Ohio9 wrote:So what exactly is a J-frame?

The best deep carry service caliber option available today, period.

http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/wcs/ ... 7751_image
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Ohio9
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Re: Favorite backup guns

Postby Ohio9 » Sun Mar 08, 2015 2:48 pm

Nathan wrote:
Ohio9 wrote:So what exactly is a J-frame?

The best deep carry service caliber option available today, period.

http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/wcs/ ... 7751_image


I don't know about that. I tired an airweight a long time ago. Can't remember which one exactly (probably a 637 or 642), but I do remember it kicked like crazy, had a crappy trigger, and was pretty inaccurate. I'd rather go with the S&W36, especially with its thin grips.

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Re: Favorite backup guns

Postby riadat » Sun Mar 08, 2015 3:30 pm

I sometimes carry my 43c 8 shot smith as a backup. 8 shots of 22 is not too bad at 12 oz loaded.

When that is happening its backing up either my .38 j or .38 k frame. Pocket carry the backup and owb the main gun.

And of course the shotgun in the trunk.

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Re: Favorite backup guns

Postby Nathan » Sun Mar 08, 2015 4:32 pm

Ohio9 wrote:I tired an airweight a long time ago. Can't remember which one exactly (probably a 637 or 642), but I do remember it kicked like crazy

OK I will correct my statement:

The best deep carry service caliber option available today period, for men. :lol:


had a crappy trigger

All DA triggers are crappy, only varying degrees of crappy. The single action trigger pull is actually very decent.


was pretty inaccurate

They are no more inaccurate than any other sub-compact. I own three J-Frames and always have one of them in my pocket either as a back up or as primary carry when deep concealment is required.
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Re: Favorite backup guns

Postby Ohio9 » Sun Mar 08, 2015 5:06 pm

Nathan wrote:
All DA triggers are crappy, only varying degrees of crappy. The single action trigger pull is actually very decent.


True, but some DA triggers are better then others. The Ruger LCRx trigger is excellent compared to the competition.

Nathan wrote:They are no more inaccurate than any other sub-compact. I own three J-Frames and always have one of them in my pocket either as a back up or as primary carry when deep concealment is required.


Fair enough. Also I noticed the 36 is listed on the S&W website under J-Frame, so i guess it is one.

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Re: Favorite backup guns

Postby Nathan » Sun Mar 08, 2015 5:19 pm

I'll admit that I'm a trigger snob, but cannot bring myself to state that any double action trigger is "better" than any other. I will only state that some double action triggers are "even worse" than some others.

I actually prefer the harder mainspring on the J-Frame. Light mainsprings don't hit as hard and if I should run across a hard primer the heavier mainspring is more likely to ignite it.
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Re: Favorite backup guns

Postby Pickwick » Sun Mar 08, 2015 5:50 pm

I never met a DA trigger that I liked.

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Ohio9
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Re: Favorite backup guns

Postby Ohio9 » Sun Mar 08, 2015 5:52 pm

Pickwick wrote:I never met a DA trigger that I liked.


Does the trigger on a Kahr pistol count as double action? If so, then I have

Nathan wrote:I'll admit that I'm a trigger snob, but cannot bring myself to state that any double action trigger is "better" than any other. I will only state that some double action triggers are "even worse" than some others.


Makes sense. I too hate the heavy double action pull of a revolver. That has always been my biggest grievance against them. Not their limited capacity.

Still I do notice that some have better triggers then others. Have you tried the LCRx yet? (not the LCR, but the LCRx). It's trigger is significantly better then any other snub nosed revolver. If someone could take that trigger and put it on a wheel gun that doesn't kick so hard that it rips the flesh off your hand after shooting 70 rounds with it, that would be the best revolver ever made.

Also its interesting that despite your hatred of revolver triggers, you still chose to carry them, sometimes even as your primary gun. Why do that as opposed to tiny service caliber autoloaders?

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Re: Favorite backup guns

Postby Pickwick » Sun Mar 08, 2015 8:11 pm

Autoloaders are not as reliable as revolvers.

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Re: Favorite backup guns

Postby Hand and Steel » Sun Mar 08, 2015 8:13 pm

Sometimes I carry a Makarov as backup, if it's hot. Sometimes I carry a 1911 as backup, if it's not.

Anyone else do the 2 full size service pistols thing?
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Re: Favorite backup guns

Postby Nathan » Sun Mar 08, 2015 8:33 pm

Ohio9 wrote:Does the trigger on a Kahr pistol count as double action?
No; the Kahr is a modified (ruined) Glock action. They may call it DA but without second strike capability its not DA. I say they ruined it because they made the trigger so incredibly long.


Have you tried the LCRx yet?
Yes; it's slightly less miserable than the J-Frame trigger. This is accomplished by utilizing a lighter mainspring.


its interesting that despite your hatred of revolver triggers, you still chose to carry them, sometimes even as your primary gun. Why do that as opposed to tiny service caliber autoloaders?
I have never found a service caliber autoloader that I can pocket carry in comfort (physical and mental) in man pants (and I wear them loose). If I ever wore slacks (looser pockets) I would no doubt carry an S&W M&P Shield with the short magazine but in jeans the J-Frame is fully serviceable, even while seated. I can draw it with an authoritative purchase without fear or concern of an ND being fired into my leg. The heavy trigger makes it an even better choice for pocket carry. I've tried every conceivable combination of guns and holsters and still, for pocket carry the J-Frame is to me far superior. I never carry it as primary any time I'm able to conceal my Glock 32, but when deep cover is necessary I do find comfort in having five 180 grain .357 Magnum SJHPs. Yes it is quite a handful to shoot the 180 grain loads in a scandium J-Frame, but I couldn't imagine a human threat able to continue to attack me if hit center mass with one.
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Re: Favorite backup guns

Postby Pickwick » Sun Mar 08, 2015 8:40 pm

Hey, Nathan, has it jarred the fillings out of your teeth yet? LOL!

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Ohio9
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Re: Favorite backup guns

Postby Ohio9 » Sun Mar 08, 2015 8:49 pm

Hand and Steel wrote:Sometimes I carry a Makarov as backup, if it's hot. Sometimes I carry a 1911 as backup, if it's not.

Anyone else do the 2 full size service pistols thing?


Wow that's impressive. I don't even like to carry one full sized autoloader, let alone two. I'll leave that to you and Danny Glover in the Lethal Weapon sequels

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Nathan wrote:No; the Kahr is a modified (ruined) Glock action. They may call it DA but without second strike capability its not DA.


Is that requirement actually the textbook definition of a DA trigger or just your interpretation?

Nathan wrote:Yes; it's slightly less miserable than the J-Frame trigger. This is accomplished by utilizing a lighter mainspring.


Yes indeed. I wonder why they using the lighter spring for the LCRx, but not the LCR.

Nathan wrote:
I have never found a service caliber autoloader that I can pocket carry in comfort (physical and mental) in man pants (and I wear them loose). If I ever wore slacks (looser pockets) I would no doubt carry an S&W M&P Shield with the short magazine but in jeans the J-Frame is fully serviceable, even while seated. I can draw it with an authoritative purchase without fear or concern of an ND being fired into my leg. The heavy trigger makes it an even better choice for pocket carry. I've tried every conceivable combination of guns and holsters and still, for pocket carry the J-Frame is to me far superior. I never carry it as primary any time I'm able to conceal my Glock 32, but when deep cover is necessary I do find comfort in having five 180 grain .357 Magnum SJHPs. Yes it is quite a handful to shoot the 180 grain loads in a scandium J-Frame, but I couldn't imagine a human threat able to continue to attack me if hit center mass with one.


Really, you couldn't imagine someone taking more then one shot with a .357 JHP magnum center mass and keep attacking? You are are familiar with the case of Trooper Mark Coates, correct?

Anyway if you are cool with snub nosed revolvers in pocket carry, that's fine, but you know I really don't consider a gun like the M&P shield to be a pocket gun. There are smaller semi-auto guns in service caliber, such as Kahr pistols.
Last edited by Ohio9 on Sun Mar 08, 2015 9:05 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Favorite backup guns

Postby Nathan » Sun Mar 08, 2015 9:00 pm

Ohio9 wrote:Is that requirement actually the textbook definition of a DA trigger or just your interpretation?
DA starts with hammer/striker at rest. The trigger is what stresses and releases the hammer/striker. With a DA you have second strike capabilities in an autoloader. In a Glock action, the striker is partially pre-stressed. The trigger completes the stress and release. The Kahr utilizes the Glock action only they made the trigger obscenely long.
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Re: Favorite backup guns

Postby Smurf » Mon Mar 09, 2015 4:44 pm

In a Glock action, the striker is partially pre-stressed. The trigger completes the stress and release. The Kahr utilizes the Glock action only they made the trigger obscenely long.

That is the only thing I have against the Kahr so far. The Glock trigger has ruined me. I was looking for a thinner pistol than the G26 and really like the Kahr except for the long trigger. But I guess, I hope I never find out, in a defensive situation the longer trigger will not even be noticed.

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Re: Favorite backup guns

Postby Ohio9 » Mon Mar 09, 2015 5:32 pm

Smurf wrote:I was looking for a thinner pistol than the G26 and really like the Kahr except for the long trigger.


Here is the way I look at it. Yes, the trigger on a Kahr is not as good as that of a Glock. But the Kahr trigger is better then that of ANY gun of comparable size, both autoloaders and revolvers. I challenge anyone here to find a gun of comparable dimensions and weight to the Kahr CM9 or PM9 with a superior trigger.

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Re: Favorite backup guns

Postby Nathan » Mon Mar 09, 2015 5:33 pm

Pickwick wrote:Hey, Nathan, has it jarred the fillings out of your teeth yet? LOL!
It doesn't stop there; it jars my teeth! :D
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Re: Favorite backup guns

Postby Nathan » Mon Mar 09, 2015 6:53 pm

Ohio9 wrote:Really, you couldn't imagine someone taking more then one shot with a .357 JHP magnum center mass and keep attacking? You are are familiar with the case of Trooper Mark Coates, correct?

Trooper Coates was shooting 125 grain JHP bullets. I specifically listed 180 grain SJHP and no, I cannot imagine anyone taking one center mass and continuing to fight. Is it possible? Certainly. It's also possible that a piano will fall from an airplane and land on my house. Everything related to shooting is a matter of statistical possibilities and few choices commonly available today have as much stopping power potential as a 180 grain .357 Magnum SJHP loaded to potential.
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Re: Favorite backup guns

Postby Ohio9 » Mon Mar 09, 2015 6:59 pm

Interesting. I didn't know the grain of his bullets were so low. I've always considered .357 rounds as having more a punch then that.

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Re: Favorite backup guns

Postby Nathan » Mon Mar 09, 2015 7:22 pm

Ohio9 wrote:I didn't know the grain of his bullets were so low.
The 125 grain was once deemed "King of the Streets" and was the standard police issue. Compared to the previous .38 Special it was a well deserved title. The 158 grain load was later developed for more penetration and then the 180 grain load followed. I don't carry 180 grain in JHP because they tend to grossly over-penetrate anything human size, but the SJHP tends to expand more thus limiting penetration to prevent over-penetration. It still happens but isn't as likely in an obese or muscle-bound attacker. 180 grain SJHP hits like a truck and does really nasty and beautiful things.


I've always considered .357 rounds as having more a punch then that.
As with any caliber you carry, go heavy.
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Re: Favorite backup guns

Postby Nathan » Mon Mar 09, 2015 7:39 pm

BTW, if you do any research you will find three claims. Some claim it was a 125 grain .357 Magnum. Some claim that it was a 125 grain .38 Special +P, and some claim that it was a 145 grain .357 Magnum Silvertip (one of the worst possible choices). It was 125 grain .357 Magnum JHP.
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