Condition 0 carry

Defensive carry handguns.
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Condition 0 carry

Postby Nathan » Sat Feb 04, 2017 12:02 pm

I've been carrying my 1911 condition 0. With the grip safety, it's mechanically no different from carrying an XD. Anybody else? I'd also be interested in hearing a rational argument against it. Setting aside all the hyper-safety-nazi stuff comparable to carrying unchambered for the illusion of safety, why use the thumb safety at all?
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Re: Condition 0 carry

Postby jeffhughes » Sat Feb 04, 2017 2:48 pm

I don't know much about 1911s. Do they back each other up in different ways?

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Re: Condition 0 carry

Postby Nathan » Sat Feb 04, 2017 3:51 pm

When you purchase the gun's grip the web of your hand automatically disengages the grip safety. They are redundant safeties.
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Re: Condition 0 carry

Postby samuelrp » Sat Feb 04, 2017 7:58 pm

Training is the the key to not shooting yourself in the foot with any handgun during a instantaneous situation.
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Re: Condition 0 carry

Postby MisterB » Sat Feb 04, 2017 11:07 pm

Nathan wrote:I've been carrying my 1911 condition 0. With the grip safety, it's mechanically no different from carrying an XD. Anybody else? I'd also be interested in hearing a rational argument against it. Setting aside all they hyper-safety-nazi stuff comparable to carrying unchambered for the illusion of safety, why use the thumb safety at all?


That's not entirely accurate, and dangerous to boot.

First, an XD has a Glock style trigger safety, in addition to the grip safety. Second, it has a longer and a heavier trigger pull than a 1911. Hell, even just holstering or reholstering a 1911 in condition 0 is dangerous. But, hey- it's your foot, leg, floor, family member...

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Re: Condition 0 carry

Postby jeffhughes » Sun Feb 05, 2017 8:02 am

Nathan wrote:When you purchase the gun's grip the web of your hand automatically disengages the grip safety. They are redundant safeties.


I know what a grip safety is.

My question is more along the lines of would the manual safety add protection from dropping the gun in the way a grip safety would not?

I can tell you that in 3 Gun almost all 2011(same design, just a double stack), almost all grip safeties are disabled.

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Re: Condition 0 carry

Postby samuelrp » Sun Feb 05, 2017 9:22 am

I would clarify my initial statement. Most people are not professional enough to fo this.
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Re: Condition 0 carry

Postby hkguy » Sun Feb 05, 2017 10:15 am

MisterB wrote:
Nathan wrote:I've been carrying my 1911 condition 0. With the grip safety, it's mechanically no different from carrying an XD. Anybody else? I'd also be interested in hearing a rational argument against it. Setting aside all they hyper-safety-nazi stuff comparable to carrying unchambered for the illusion of safety, why use the thumb safety at all?


That's not entirely accurate, and dangerous to boot.

First, an XD has a Glock style trigger safety, in addition to the grip safety. Second, it has a longer and a heavier trigger pull than a 1911. Hell, even just holstering or reholstering a 1911 in condition 0 is dangerous. But, hey- it's your foot, leg, floor, family member...



most 1911's come from the factory with a 4-5lb trigger pull just like the XD and glock. the difference between a VP9, PPQ/X and factory 1911 trigger travel length is negligible too. many aftermarket triggers have similar length of travel too (zev, apex, etc). the "safety" in the trigger does not really do anything and just gives you the illusion that its a safety. Its a redundant. They are quite easy to trip and deactivate in a snag situation while re holstering.

activating the thumb safety further mitigates the chances of a ND while re holstering, assuming the grip safety is deactivated. that is the only real difference between carrying condition 0 in a 1911, carrying condition 1, or carrying any other striker fired gun excluding the P7. As long as your leather holsters are in good shape and you are ok with the slightly increased odds of having a ND while re holstering. I don't see a problem carrying this method. Its not a method id advocate for noobs though.
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Re: Condition 0 carry

Postby MisterB » Sun Feb 05, 2017 11:12 am

hkguy wrote:
MisterB wrote:
Nathan wrote:I've been carrying my 1911 condition 0. With the grip safety, it's mechanically no different from carrying an XD. Anybody else? I'd also be interested in hearing a rational argument against it. Setting aside all they hyper-safety-nazi stuff comparable to carrying unchambered for the illusion of safety, why use the thumb safety at all?


That's not entirely accurate, and dangerous to boot.

First, an XD has a Glock style trigger safety, in addition to the grip safety. Second, it has a longer and a heavier trigger pull than a 1911. Hell, even just holstering or reholstering a 1911 in condition 0 is dangerous. But, hey- it's your foot, leg, floor, family member...



most 1911's come from the factory with a 4-5lb trigger pull just like the XD and glock. the difference between a VP9, PPQ/X and factory 1911 trigger travel length is negligible too. many aftermarket triggers have similar length of travel too (zev, apex, etc). the "safety" in the trigger does not really do anything and just gives you the illusion that its a safety. Its a redundant. They are quite easy to trip and deactivate in a snag situation while re holstering.

activating the thumb safety further mitigates the chances of a ND while re holstering, assuming the grip safety is deactivated. that is the only real difference between carrying condition 0 in a 1911, carrying condition 1, or carrying any other striker fired gun excluding the P7. As long as your leather holsters are in good shape and you are ok with the slightly increased odds of having a ND while re holstering. I don't see a problem carrying this method. Its not a method id advocate for noobs though.

Lol. You somehow managed to confirm most of what I said, and at the same time say you don't see a problem carrying in this method.

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Re: Condition 0 carry

Postby Nathan » Sun Feb 05, 2017 1:16 pm

MisterB wrote:dangerous to boot.

Carrying a gun, in and of itself, is dangerous.


First, an XD has a Glock style trigger safety, in addition to the grip safety. Second, it has a longer and a heavier trigger pull than a 1911. Hell, even just holstering or reholstering a 1911 in condition 0 is dangerous. But, hey- it's your foot, leg, floor, family member...

The safeties on an XD are all automatic safeties. There is no safety to prevent the type of ND in a 1911 Condition #0 that wouldn't also apply to an XD. The trigger safety on an XD would do nothing to prevent an ND from snagging while re-holstering. I get all the hyper-sensitivity to safety, but is there a tangible reason you can think of that makes carrying a 1911 Condition #0 anymore dangerous than carrying an XD Condition #0? With an XD there is no Condition #1; it's either 0 or 3 and I would never carry any gun Condition #3.
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Re: Condition 0 carry

Postby hkguy » Sun Feb 05, 2017 1:54 pm

MisterB wrote:
hkguy wrote:
MisterB wrote:
That's not entirely accurate, and dangerous to boot.

First, an XD has a Glock style trigger safety, in addition to the grip safety. Second, it has a longer and a heavier trigger pull than a 1911. Hell, even just holstering or reholstering a 1911 in condition 0 is dangerous. But, hey- it's your foot, leg, floor, family member...



most 1911's come from the factory with a 4-5lb trigger pull just like the XD and glock. the difference between a VP9, PPQ/X and factory 1911 trigger travel length is negligible too. many aftermarket triggers have similar length of travel too (zev, apex, etc). the "safety" in the trigger does not really do anything and just gives you the illusion that its a safety. Its a redundant. They are quite easy to trip and deactivate in a snag situation while re holstering.

activating the thumb safety further mitigates the chances of a ND while re holstering, assuming the grip safety is deactivated. that is the only real difference between carrying condition 0 in a 1911, carrying condition 1, or carrying any other striker fired gun excluding the P7. As long as your leather holsters are in good shape and you are ok with the slightly increased odds of having a ND while re holstering. I don't see a problem carrying this method. Its not a method id advocate for noobs though.


Lol. You somehow managed to confirm most of what I said, and at the same time say you don't see a problem carrying in this method.


Really? I said that there is really no difference between carrying a 1911 in condition 0 v carrying a glock or any other striker fired gun besides a P7. An engaged thumb safety makes the act of holstering/re-holstering slightly more safe I fail to see how my statement confirms your reasons Nathan or anyone should NOT carry condition 0 if they are comfortable with that style of carry.

You alluded to the scary light trigger that a 1911 can possess but many don't right off the assembly line. In my experience with the exception of NY specific guns, all pistols pretty much come from the factor with the trigger pull weight set somewhere between 4-5 lbs. VP9s and Walther PPQ/X have similar lengths of trigger travel compared to a 1911. Unrefiled 1911 triggers still have a good bit of take up too. Holstering and re-holstering ANY gun can be dangerous but your claim is that somehow the "safety" built into glock/S&W, Ruger, HK, Springfields etc triggers some how make them SAFER than 1911's. those trigger "safeties" do little to stop a ND should anything get in the trigger guard (shirts, jacket, worn out holsters, fingers etc). I've seen my fair share of snags with nearly all makes and models of pistols on the IDPA course occur while re-holstering. Most happen with newer shooters who are using their carry rigs and plain cloths. Luckily the shooters had just cleared the gun prior to doing so. I've also give countless finger warnings to shooters of all skill levels for being lazy in respect to their finger discipline while moving and manipulating their firearm during a course of fire.

Nathan is at a different level and different place than most of us when it comes to 1911's. His logic on this topic makes sense given his history and background with firearms. Would I advocate/suggest this method of carry for someone just getting into concealed carry? No, it would not be my first recommendation. They more than likely have a whole host of other bad habits associated with firearm manipulation pertaining to concealed carry. I concede that this presents a contradiction of sorts. At the end of the day, it really should not matter how one chooses provided : they keep the trigger guard covered, adheres to the 4 universal laws of handling firearms, and the person keeps their kit in tip top shape.
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Re: Condition 0 carry

Postby Hand and Steel » Sun Feb 05, 2017 2:00 pm

The safest way to carry a loaded automatic is to have the chamber empty, but we still want to be able to bring the gun into action quickly and with a single hand, so most of us carry with a round in the chamber and accept that it is less tolerant of foolish handling. Manual safeties, hammer down carry with a single action gun, double action, etc. are an additional margin of safety. They are there because s*** happens. Carrying cocked with the safety off might be reasonable if you really expected to be ambushed by ninjas at any moment... but if that was the case you'd carry a rifle and wear armor everywhere - and that's not what concealed carry is for. Concealed carry is because s*** happens unexpectedly and sometimes the most reasonable way to stop someone from harming us is to shoot them. Concealed carry is a compromise - we carry handguns instead of rifles because it's convenient. We carry with a round in the chamber because it increases our chances of being able to use the weapon in time. And we use safeties, hammer down or double action because s*** happens - remember that they are called accidents for a reason - no one plans on accidentally shooting themselves or someone else while distracted, injured or stressed - so we want to increase the margin of error to decrease the chance of an unintended discharge. Safeties and double action are a compromise - you're still able to have one in the pipe and carry it safely - you just have to deal with the fact that you have to either disengage a safety or fire the first shot double action. Or cock the hammer. And THERE WILL BE NO PERFECT SCORES IN A GUNFIGHT. Leave well enough alone - we live in an imperfect world, and the quest for perfection always ends badly. If you want to carry your 1911 all the time, just use the damn safety.

Is carrying a cocked and unlocked 1911 really any different than carrying an XD with a round in the chamber? No. But I would rather carry a P38 than an XD if I had the choice. XDs are great for a lot of reasons, but the margin of error is too low in my opinion.

Just remember that s*** happens. If it does, you'll either wish, or be glad, you had calculated for it and gave yourself a reasonable margin of error.
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Re: Condition 0 carry

Postby Hand and Steel » Sun Feb 05, 2017 2:14 pm

jeffhughes wrote:would the manual safety add protection from dropping the gun in the way a grip safety would not?


The manual safety effectively locks the sear in place. With the sear locked, the hammer would have a very difficult time moving, since the sear/hammer engagement would have to slip for the hammer to fall. With properly fitted parts in good condition that would be very difficult. It works just like on your Arcus 94. It's been a couple years since I detailed stripped my 1911 but if I remember correctly the grip safety only blocks the trigger from moving - not the sear or hammer.
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Re: Condition 0 carry

Postby Ohio9 » Sun Feb 05, 2017 3:54 pm

Hand and Steel wrote:
Is carrying a cocked and unlocked 1911 really any different than carrying an XD with a round in the chamber? No. But I would rather carry a P38 than an XD if I had the choice. XDs are great for a lot of reasons, but the margin of error is too low in my opinion.


Does this mean you would not carry a Glock either?

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Re: Condition 0 carry

Postby Nathan » Sun Feb 05, 2017 4:15 pm

Hand and Steel wrote:Manual safeties, hammer down carry with a single action gun, double action, etc. are an additional margin of safety.

Be aware that this is no longer taught by anyone in single action guns. Lowering the hammer on a loaded chamber is the most dangerous thing you can do and leads to more NDs than any other method of carry.
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Re: Condition 0 carry

Postby Hand and Steel » Sun Feb 05, 2017 8:07 pm

Ohio9 wrote:Does this mean you would not carry a Glock either?

I would carry a Glock if it was the best thing at hand. As it is I won't carry a Glock or similar while I have other good options that will do either double action to single action or cocked and locked.

Nathan wrote:Be aware that this is no longer taught by anyone in single action guns. Lowering the hammer on a loaded chamber is the most dangerous thing you can do and leads to more NDs than any other method of carry.

I'm not overly concerned whether or not it is taught by anyone, as lowering the hammer manually is still practiced by me. My main carry pistol is a double action gun with no decocker, so I do this anytime I load one into the chamber after routine cleaning. Same as is done with a CZ 75. Same as was done with the original Beretta 92 before they moved the safety to the slide. Same thing can be done with a 1911, though I will only carry one that way if it has a firing pin block. The safest way to manually lower the hammer over a loaded chamber is to do it while wearing soft leather gloves for added traction and to put your thumb on the striking face of the hammer, slowly ease it forward until it is past the half cock notch, release the trigger so that the firing pin block re-engages, and then gently roll your thumb off the hammer and let it forward onto the firing pin. Obviously the gun is pointed in a safe direction the whole time.
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Re: Condition 0 carry

Postby Nathan » Mon Feb 06, 2017 7:41 am

Hand and Steel wrote:I'm not overly concerned whether or not it is taught by anyone, as lowering the hammer manually is still practiced by me.

I can understand and appreciate that you are a grown man who has found what works for him. I can also appreciate that I will not change your mind. I ask that you also appreciate that as an NRA Certified Instructor, I am bound by established safety standards to discourage you from doing it anyway. Know that the practice is considered unsafe and would be prohibited in any training class, safety or tactical training. I cannot say for certain, and perhaps Matt can weigh in here, it's likely also prohibited in competition. It's prohibited by police and military. It is widely accepted as the most dangerous method of carry and is slower than #1 and #2. Not only is lowering the hammer statistically dangerous, but cocking the hammer while under an adrenaline dump is equally (if not more so due to the adrenaline) dangerous and can lead to an ND.
Again, I expect nothing of what I've said to change anything, I'm just obligated to say it anyway. That I hope it will make you reconsider Condition #2 carry is secondary to my moral obligation to object.

Same thing can be done with a 1911, though I will only carry one that way if it has a firing pin block.

Why wouldn't you carry a 1911 Condition #0 or #1?

The safest way to manually lower the hammer over a loaded chamber is to do it while wearing soft leather gloves for added traction and to put your thumb on the striking face of the hammer, slowly ease it forward until it is past the half cock notch, release the trigger so that the firing pin block re-engages, and then gently roll your thumb off the hammer and let it forward onto the firing pin. Obviously the gun is pointed in a safe direction the whole time.

But remember, you have to cock the gun to use it in a defensive situation, and likely as a split second decision under an adrenaline dump surrounded by innocent people. Just something to consider.
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Re: Condition 0 carry

Postby MisterB » Mon Feb 06, 2017 3:08 pm

Nathan wrote:
MisterB wrote:dangerous to boot.

Carrying a gun, in and of itself, is dangerous.


First, an XD has a Glock style trigger safety, in addition to the grip safety. Second, it has a longer and a heavier trigger pull than a 1911. Hell, even just holstering or reholstering a 1911 in condition 0 is dangerous. But, hey- it's your foot, leg, floor, family member...

The safeties on an XD are all automatic safeties. There is no safety to prevent the type of ND in a 1911 Condition #0 that wouldn't also apply to an XD. The trigger safety on an XD would do nothing to prevent an ND from snagging while re-holstering. I get all the hyper-sensitivity to safety, but is there a tangible reason you can think of that makes carrying a 1911 Condition #0 anymore dangerous than carrying an XD Condition #0? With an XD there is no Condition #1; it's either 0 or 3 and I would never carry any gun Condition #3.


Yes, carrying a gun is dangerous, but does that therefore mean safety should be ignored? It's like saying driving is dangerous, so therefore what does it matter if you swerve in to incoming traffic?

Propping up the XD compared to carrying a 1911 condition 0, is sort of a strawman argument. I don't necessarily recommend carrying an XD either. If you look at cutaway videos of both an XD cycling and a Glock, I'd much prefer the Glock. IMHO it is safer. The firing pin isn't sitting there under the constant tension that it is on an XD. For the sake of argument, a tangible reason is that an XD has a longer and heavier trigger pull than a 1911 that you would be carrying, and also just because something COULD snag the trigger on an XD AND manage to press the trigger safety in, doesn't mean it will or that it's trigger is just as unsafe as a 1911 cocked and carried in condition 0 that gets snagged by something.

In the end, shoot who or what you want negligently. The fact you're asking, says you must have some doubts with your method, and I think your subconscious is correct.

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Re: Condition 0 carry

Postby MisterB » Mon Feb 06, 2017 3:16 pm

@HKguy
Oh, man. You just said carrying a Glock and a 1911 condition 0 are no different? Go look at a video of a Glock cut away model being cycled, and then do the same for a 1911. You'll see the difference. The Glock is hands down safer, and I'm a 1911 and a Glock guy, so I don't have a dog in the fight.

Your argument about Nathan's knowledge regarding 1911's just shows that he's more likely to carry a 1911 with a much shorter and lighter trigger pull than most.

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Re: Condition 0 carry

Postby MisterB » Mon Feb 06, 2017 3:24 pm

Nathan wrote:
Hand and Steel wrote:I'm not overly concerned whether or not it is taught by anyone, as lowering the hammer manually is still practiced by me.

I can understand and appreciate that you are a grown man who has found what works for him. I can also appreciate that I will not change your mind. I ask that you also appreciate that as an NRA Certified Instructor, I am bound by established safety standards to discourage you from doing it anyway. Know that the practice is considered unsafe and would be prohibited in any training class, safety or tactical training. I cannot say for certain, and perhaps Matt can weigh in here, it's likely also prohibited in competition. It's prohibited by police and military. It is widely accepted as the most dangerous method of carry and is slower than #1 and #2. Not only is lowering the hammer statistically dangerous, but cocking the hammer while under an adrenaline dump is equally (if not more so due to the adrenaline) dangerous and can lead to an ND.
Again, I expect nothing of what I've said to change anything, I'm just obligated to say it anyway. That I hope it will make you reconsider Condition #2 carry is secondary to my moral obligation to object.

Same thing can be done with a 1911, though I will only carry one that way if it has a firing pin block.

Why wouldn't you carry a 1911 Condition #0 or #1?

The safest way to manually lower the hammer over a loaded chamber is to do it while wearing soft leather gloves for added traction and to put your thumb on the striking face of the hammer, slowly ease it forward until it is past the half cock notch, release the trigger so that the firing pin block re-engages, and then gently roll your thumb off the hammer and let it forward onto the firing pin. Obviously the gun is pointed in a safe direction the whole time.

But remember, you have to cock the gun to use it in a defensive situation, and likely as a split second decision under an adrenaline dump surrounded by innocent people. Just something to consider.


Nathan, I'm sorry man, but it sounds weird for you to talk about carrying a 1911 with a round in the chamber, hammer fully cocked, and the safety OFF... And then lecture him about being an NRA instructor and his lack of safety

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Re: Condition 0 carry

Postby Hand and Steel » Mon Feb 06, 2017 5:57 pm

Nathan wrote:It is widely accepted as the most dangerous method of carry and is slower than #1 and #2. Not only is lowering the hammer statistically dangerous, but cocking the hammer while under an adrenaline dump is equally (if not more so due to the adrenaline) dangerous and can lead to an ND.
...
But remember, you have to cock the gun to use it in a defensive situation, and likely as a split second decision under an adrenaline dump surrounded by innocent people. Just something to consider.

Cocking the hammer is not something I would have to do with my main defensive guns, since they are double action to single action (However if I suspected that I was about to have to use my weapon, and I had the time to do it, I would probably cock the hammer manually.). They are carried with a round in the chamber, hammer down for a double action first shot, safety off. The reason I manually lower the hammer is because they don't have decocking levers.
Arcus 98DA double action emphasis.gif
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Nathan wrote:Why wouldn't you carry a 1911 Condition #0 or #1?

When I carry a 1911, it is cocked and locked. I am only making the statement here that I would only consider hammer down on a loaded chamber with a 1911 if there is a firing pin block. I would not even consider it if there is no firing pin block, since a sharp blow to the hammer could possibly transfer enough energy to the firing pin to jolt it forward into the primer and cause an unintended discharge.
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Re: Condition 0 carry

Postby Nathan » Mon Feb 06, 2017 6:39 pm

MisterB wrote:The fact you're asking, says you must have some doubts with your method, and I think your subconscious is correct.

Not at all; I ask questions to create dialogue from which everybody (myself included) can learn from everybody else, often despite that I've already made up my mind. Dialogue is sort of a good thing on a message board. Image
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Re: Condition 0 carry

Postby Nathan » Mon Feb 06, 2017 6:40 pm

MisterB wrote:Nathan, I'm sorry man, but it sounds weird for you to talk about carrying a 1911 with a round in the chamber, hammer fully cocked, and the safety OFF... And then lecture him about being an NRA instructor and his lack of safety

Not at all; one is an NRA approved mode of carry, and the other is not. Condition #0 on a single action handgun is NRA approved (I know many instructors who carry XDs); Condition #2 on a single action handgun is prohibited.
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Re: Condition 0 carry

Postby Nathan » Mon Feb 06, 2017 7:04 pm

MisterB wrote:@HKguy
Oh, man. You just said carrying a Glock and a 1911 condition 0 are no different?

From the shooter's perspective, they are no different. Are there mechanical differences? Sure; but we're working on the assumption of a properly maintained firearm in serviceable condition. From the shooter's perspective, there is nothing that would make the 1911 ND that wouldn't do the same for the XD.
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Re: Condition 0 carry

Postby Nathan » Mon Feb 06, 2017 8:04 pm

Hand and Steel wrote:Cocking the hammer is not something I would have to do with my main defensive guns, since they are double action to single action

Everything I've said applies to single action guns only. Condition #2 is perfectly acceptable for DA guns.
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