.357 Sig neutered

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Nathan
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.357 Sig neutered

Postby Nathan » Tue Jan 05, 2016 10:28 am

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The 357 Sig was originally designed to shoot a 125 grain 9mm bullet at 1,450 fps thus matching 125 grain .357 Magnum. Hornady is now offering a 115 grain 9mm bullet traveling 1,235fps. Let me put this into perspective. Corbon 115 grain 9mm has a muzzle velocity exceeding 1,400 fps (they advertise 1350, I've chrono'd consistently above 1,400). Why in hell would anybody carry a 115 grain .357 Sig with less capacity and less velocity than 9mm? Corbon also offers a 125 grain 9mm at 1,250 fps, still faster than the 115 grain 357 Sig from Hornady.
Considering that almost everyone has downloaded the 357 Sig (even Sig has downloaded their own caliber to 125 grains @ 1350 fps), I'm wondering if the industry is simply losing interest in the caliber. Regardless, there's just no excuse for a 357 Sig load to be moving slower than 9mm when it's the same bullet else what's the point?
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Re: .357 Sig neutered

Postby MisterB » Tue Jan 05, 2016 11:39 am

It's no different than 10mm vs 40 S&W. They watered down the 10mm over the years, to where it was an expensive 40 S&W round. If they keep watering down the 357 Sig, it becomes an expensive 9mm. Count on manufacturers to pander to the loud and ignorant who don't understand any better, other than they want to pay less and not feel any recoil. If you want to use a 357 Sig, then take up reloading and do your rounds however you see fit, or purchase factory ammo that fits your needs. It's not the fault of the round.

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Re: .357 Sig neutered

Postby Nathan » Tue Jan 05, 2016 12:07 pm

Indeed; but this load is actually weaker than the comparable 9mm and is ironically called "Critical Defense". I pity the uninformed. In 357 Sig I only carry Corbon or Buffalo Bore because they load to potential.
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Re: .357 Sig neutered

Postby MisterB » Tue Jan 05, 2016 12:16 pm

Nathan wrote:Indeed; but this load is actually weaker than the comparable 9mm and is ironically called "Critical Defense". I pity the uninformed. In 357 Sig I only carry Corbon or Buffalo Bore because they load to potential.


And I carry HST in 357 Sig, because velocity is only part of the equation against human attackers. I like the expansion of HST, and feel it tends to be better than other manufacturers, so if it has 100 less fps or so than Buffalo, I'm fine with that. I wish HST came in a slightly more potent offering in 357, but it's not bad, and I would think Federal must have come to the conclusion in their testing that this combination of velocity and bullet type was best for expansion.

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Re: .357 Sig neutered

Postby Nathan » Tue Jan 05, 2016 12:26 pm

While I agree that 125 grains @ 1350 is still a devastating load (I've no reservation carrying 125 grain 9mm @ 1200+), make no mistake about why it was downloaded to 1350. It's not that 1350 was optimal for bullet performance; it's about appealing to more law enforcement concerned about recoil for female officers who struggle to qualify with full potential 357 Sig. It was downloaded for the exact same reason that .40 was born of the 10mm. It's also easier on the guns. I would absolutely trust it at 1350 but since I've never had a Corbon fail to expand I have no reason to sacrifice 100 fps.
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Re: .357 Sig neutered

Postby MisterB » Tue Jan 05, 2016 1:09 pm

Nathan wrote:While I agree that 125 grains @ 1350 is still a devastating load (I've no reservation carrying 125 grain 9mm @ 1200+), make no mistake about why it was downloaded to 1350. It's not that 1350 was optimal for bullet performance; it's about appealing to more law enforcement concerned about recoil for female officers who struggle to qualify with full potential 357 Sig. It was downloaded for the exact same reason that .40 was born of the 10mm. It's also easier on the guns. I would absolutely trust it at 1350 but since I've never had a Corbon fail to expand I have no reason to sacrifice 100 fps.


I guess. It's just kinda weird that HST offers +P in other duty calibers, such as 9mm and 45 ACP, but not in 357 Sig. If recoil and female officers are the problem, offer 357 Sig in +P and non +P, like they do with the other two calibers I pointed out. It could be due to what you're saying, but might be due to some unique characteristics with that necked down case with the 357 Sig and the round in general that creates overpenetration and under expansion with their bullets.

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Re: .357 Sig neutered

Postby MisterB » Tue Jan 05, 2016 5:18 pm

Here's a pretty good debate I started for you...

http://www.defensivecarry.com/forum/def ... 7-sig.html

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Re: .357 Sig neutered

Postby Nathan » Tue Jan 05, 2016 5:52 pm

The original idea behind the 357 Sig was to match .357 Magnum ballistics in an automatic. The standard 125 grain .357 Magnum hollow-point had a muzzle velocity of around 1,400-1,500 fps in common commercial loads and nobody was complaining about over-penetration. In fact, the FBI Ballistics Lab states that the fear of over-penetration is a myth:

"The fear of over-penetration is a misconception which was created back when law
enforcement was trying to overcome misinformed public resistance to the use of hollow
point ammunition. In the process, we began to believe it ourselves. First, our
lawyers are unaware of any successful legal action resulting from the injury of a
bystander due to a round over-penetrating the subject. We are aware of numerous
instances of Agents/officers being killed because their round did not penetrate enough
(Grogan and Dove, for example). Further, if you examine shooting statistics you will
see that officers hit the subject somewhere around 20-30% of the time. Thus 70-80%
of the shots fired never hit their intended target, and nobody ever worries about them -
only the ones that might “overpenetrate” the bad guy. Third, as our testing shows, even
the most frangible bullets designed specifically for shallow penetration will plug up
when striking wood or wallboard and then penetrate like full metal jacketed ammunition.

We are aware of successful legal actions where an innocent party has been struck by a shot
passing through a wall, but as we have proven, ALL of them will do that." - Dr. Fackler, FBI Ballistics Lab

I'm sure there are thousands of opinions out there for why the 357 Sig was downloaded, but the reality is the two reasons I listed. I just don't have the time to dig up all the links today but I distinctly remember the conversations that were going on ten years ago about it. Sig wanted to appeal to as many LE departments as possible but they complained about the excessive recoil. This can also be reproduced as many times as anyone would like to. Shoot one magazine of 357 Sig at 1,350 and then shoot a magazine of Corbon or Buffalo Bore at 1,450 (published 1,425 but the chrono from a Glock 31 is always around 1,450). Even with recoil being relative, the difference is notable. In addition, LE was reluctant because the 357 Sig loaded to potential is punishing on the guns:

Felt recoil is a subjective thing, and shooters debate whether the .40 S&W or the .357 SIG kicks more—proof positive they’re in the same ballpark in that regard. The .357 SIG can be tougher on the gun, though. Glock suggests armorers replace recoil springs on the .357s every 2,000 rounds or so. - SOURCE

Downloading it to 1,350 fps is a little easier on the shooter and the gun making it more appealing to law enforcement. Today as you know the biggest disadvantage to 357 Sig is the cost of shooting it. Ammunition is still stupid expensive. I'd like to see Sig step up and do like Glock did with the .45 GAP. Glock did a great job making the .45 Gap affordable by manufacturing ammunition offered at prices comparable to standard .45 ACP. If Sig ever steps up like that and makes 357 Sig ammunition comparable to that of .40 I believe it would rejuvenate the caliber. 357 Sig is probably the most fun caliber to shoot because its so dang flat; the only reason I don't shoot it more is because I can shoot .40 at a little over half the cost still.

Ultimately, I could not imagine the expense of 357 Sig while having a bullet inferior to the comparable 9mm.
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Re: .357 Sig neutered

Postby MisterB » Tue Jan 05, 2016 6:14 pm

Nathan wrote:The original idea behind the 357 Sig was to match .357 Magnum ballistics in an automatic. The standard 125 grain .357 Magnum hollow-point had a muzzle velocity of around 1,400-1,500 fps in common commercial loads and nobody was complaining about over-penetration. In fact, the FBI Ballistics Lab states that the fear of over-penetration is a myth:

"The fear of over-penetration is a misconception which was created back when law
enforcement was trying to overcome misinformed public resistance to the use of hollow
point ammunition. In the process, we began to believe it ourselves. First, our
lawyers are unaware of any successful legal action resulting from the injury of a
bystander due to a round over-penetrating the subject. We are aware of numerous
instances of Agents/officers being killed because their round did not penetrate enough
(Grogan and Dove, for example). Further, if you examine shooting statistics you will
see that officers hit the subject somewhere around 20-30% of the time. Thus 70-80%
of the shots fired never hit their intended target, and nobody ever worries about them -
only the ones that might “overpenetrate” the bad guy. Third, as our testing shows, even
the most frangible bullets designed specifically for shallow penetration will plug up
when striking wood or wallboard and then penetrate like full metal jacketed ammunition.

We are aware of successful legal actions where an innocent party has been struck by a shot
passing through a wall, but as we have proven, ALL of them will do that." - Dr. Fackler, FBI Ballistics Lab

I'm sure there are thousands of opinions out there for why the 357 Sig was downloaded, but the reality is the two reasons I listed. I just don't have the time to dig up all the links today but I distinctly remember the conversations that were going on ten years ago about it. Sig wanted to appeal to as many LE departments as possible but they complained about the excessive recoil. This can also be reproduced as many times as anyone would like to. Shoot one magazine of 357 Sig at 1,350 and then shoot a magazine of Corbon or Buffalo Bore at 1,450 (published 1,425 but the chrono from a Glock 31 is always around 1,450). Even with recoil being relative, the difference is notable. In addition, LE was reluctant because the 357 Sig loaded to potential is punishing on the guns:

Felt recoil is a subjective thing, and shooters debate whether the .40 S&W or the .357 SIG kicks more—proof positive they’re in the same ballpark in that regard. The .357 SIG can be tougher on the gun, though. Glock suggests armorers replace recoil springs on the .357s every 2,000 rounds or so. - SOURCE

Downloading it to 1,350 fps is a little easier on the shooter and the gun making it more appealing to law enforcement. Today as you know the biggest disadvantage to 357 Sig is the cost of shooting it. Ammunition is still stupid expensive. I'd like to see Sig step up and do like Glock did with the .45 GAP. Glock did a great job making the .45 Gap affordable by manufacturing ammunition offered at prices comparable to standard .45 ACP. If Sig ever steps up like that and makes 357 Sig ammunition comparable to that of .40 I believe it would rejuvenate the caliber. 357 Sig is probably the most fun caliber to shoot because its so dang flat; the only reason I don't shoot it more is because I can shoot .40 at a little over half the cost still.

Ultimately, I could not imagine the expense of 357 Sig while having a bullet inferior to the comparable 9mm.


When I say overpenetration and expansion, I'm basically saying that I would prefer that my bullet expand in the bad guy as much as possible, vs punching a small laser hole from him, and then fully expanding in the wall behind him.

Sig actually does make some pretty darn good 357 Sig ammo, and it has more ft lbs and higher velocity than their 40: http://www.sigsauer.com/Ammunition/ Note that there are two types on the chart. The FMJ is their target ammo, and it's only about $19 for a box of 50. http://www.ammunitiondepot.com/Sig-Saue ... 7b1-50.htm Not bad at all.


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