M193 vs M855

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Sebastian777
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M193 vs M855

Postby Sebastian777 » Tue Mar 10, 2015 9:58 pm

I've always stocked up on and shot 855 ammo out of my AR (1/7 twist). With the recently proposed ban, I started looking at moving to M193's for the range to save my 855's. Now that the ban has been shelved I've started comparing the two. Looking online, I haven't come across really solid information on the real world difference between the two, mostly just people's untested opinions. Yes I know 193 is 55gr and 855 is 62 with a steel tip, but I'm wondering which is actually better for what.
Questions I'm pondering:
Out of a 1/7 barrel, which usually has tighter groups?
Which would be best for hunting?
Which would be best for home defense?
Which would be best for EOTWAWKI type situations?

Which round do you guys prefer and why?

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Montanapatriot
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Re: M193 vs M855

Postby Montanapatriot » Wed Mar 11, 2015 7:24 pm

I have said this before. Geneva Convention ammo sucks against human or animal, you are better for both using SP ammo. Today's fast twist barrels over stabilize the military FMJ ammo resulting in ice pick wounds that don't incapacitate.

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Nathan
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Re: M193 vs M855

Postby Nathan » Wed Mar 11, 2015 9:14 pm

Anybody else wondering if this whole fiasco was intentional to serve as a distraction from Hillary's latest scandal or something worse?
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Re: M193 vs M855

Postby Montanapatriot » Thu Mar 12, 2015 1:17 am

No, it's not big enough and it doesn't effect enough people at the gut level.
There are more people in the county I grew up in than in all of Montana and 99% of them never shot a gun in their life.
The shooting community is large, but it's not anything compared to the Dimmercrat base.
This was solely the work of O'Bummer and Jarrett and Holder.
Something big is coming though. It will happen before the 2016 election.

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Re: M193 vs M855

Postby Hand and Steel » Thu Mar 12, 2015 2:36 pm

Montanapatriot wrote:Something big is coming though. It will happen before the 2016 election.


I've been hearing that for a while. A couple of years ago there was a lot of chatter predicting a nuclear flase flag targeting 3 to 5 major cities between September 2015 and November 2016.

It doesn't matter if people call us crazy paranoid conspiracy nuts, we need to be as vocal as possible. The more people hear it the better, because the more people who know about it in advance, the less likely "They" are to go through with it.
"It is demonstrable that power structures tend to attract people who want power for the sake of power and that a significant proportion of such people are imbalanced — in a word, insane.” – Frank Herbert

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Sebastian777
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Re: M193 vs M855

Postby Sebastian777 » Thu Mar 12, 2015 7:15 pm

"It doesn't matter if people call us crazy paranoid conspiracy nuts, we need to be as vocal as possible. The more people hear it the better, because the more people who know about it in advance, the less likely "They" are to go through with it."

I have to say I disagree with this statement. Being vocal about things we are unsure of can go to far. Look at all the climatologist being laughed at now. Running around like Chicken Little continuously will simply desensitize the public to the very thing you are warning them about. On facebook I'm part of a 3% group for Kentuckians. I'm about to leave the group because they constantly talk about how something is about to happen in KY that never happens. They post articles that are ludicrous from completely unreliable sources, if they're even cited at all. If this type of stuff is enough to turn me off, then what will it do to the general public? I'm not against voicing your concerns, but when you start sounding like a paranoid nut, what you're doing might just be counterproductive.

That being said, does any have any opinions on M193 vs M855? lol

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Sebastian777
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Re: M193 vs M855

Postby Sebastian777 » Thu Mar 12, 2015 9:04 pm

Actually I am interested in other ammo types as well. I was wondering about 193 vs 855 for stocking up purposes, but I am curious about what everyone's favorite self defense and hunting rounds are as well.

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Re: M193 vs M855

Postby Nathan » Thu Mar 12, 2015 9:21 pm

I only stock 855. Go heavy. Always. If a 75 grain version were available in the same bulk on stripper clips I would stock that.
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Re: M193 vs M855

Postby Montanapatriot » Thu Mar 12, 2015 9:48 pm

My prejudice against 5.56 military ball ammo was formed long ago. It's not good at terminal ballistics especially from 7 or 9" twist rifling.
If a person wants good performance on flesh and bone soft point or in heavier bullet needs Barnes bullets are the choice.
The video below bears this out along with field reports from Iraq and Afghanistan.
https://www.full30.com/video/071df09461 ... cd6be59728
And one more,
Last edited by Montanapatriot on Thu Mar 12, 2015 10:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: M193 vs M855

Postby Sean99TJ » Thu Mar 12, 2015 9:55 pm

The latest from our friends at the ATF today is they are going to look at all 5.45 ammo since they finally figured out that just about all rifle ammo will penetrate body armor.....first all 223....then the world for the scum sucking asshats.....gun control by outlawing any ammo that will penetrate body armor.

http://thehill.com/regulation/235521-de ... bullet-ban
http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/atf-r ... le/2561422

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Re: M193 vs M855

Postby Montanapatriot » Thu Mar 12, 2015 10:13 pm

Next the clowns will realize 30-06 will go through 4 vests and cops and keep going especially if it's old surplus ball ammo.

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Re: M193 vs M855

Postby LWP » Fri Mar 13, 2015 9:41 am

.223? 5.56? How about .22LR? Don't shoot no stinkin' BB's. If anyone is serious about "go heavy" or sending effective lead down range, shoot .308 or larger.

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Re: M193 vs M855

Postby Montanapatriot » Fri Mar 13, 2015 6:54 pm

The entire premise for the M-16 and the 5.56 was increased ammo load count for the same weight and the lack of long range need in jungle warfare. The original round and twist rate was for 200 yds or less.

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Re: M193 vs M855

Postby Montanapatriot » Sun Mar 15, 2015 10:41 pm

The entire premise of military ammo under the Geneva Convention of which the US is a signatory is that it is less lethal than commercial ammunition. It may not by the Convention be expansive, and if you hunt large game you know that you NEVER hunt with FMJ ammunition because it isn't effective or humane in killing quickly, due to the ice pick effect.
Why then is military ammo looked upon as something great by the civilian population? I believe it's that most believe that the military must procure the best. Hardly, they buy what meets the legal requirements of the treaty.
Every revision to the 5.56 round has been to *try* to make it perform like a larger caliber round,and none are truly successful. Barrier penetration? Not from a 22 caliber round. Long range potential? Not under less than favorable conditions. Lethality? Not with current available surplus supplies.
If you shoot 223 or 5.56, pick up your brass, learn to reload and you will have more effective ammo. IMHO.

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Re: M193 vs M855

Postby hkguy » Mon Mar 16, 2015 7:37 am

m855 was developed to have better penetration at extended rangers past 300m if im not mistaken. both are over stabilized as some have mentioned with the original twist rate being in the neighborhood of 1/12 or 1/14.

both will do fine for 2 legged critters and should easily clear most common barriers

my personal preference is to stock both. both shoot equally well out of my rife and my go to mags have 25 rounds of xm195 and 5 tracers at the bottom. now just to save up and get an sbr stamp and a can.

the load that offers better accuracy will depend on you and your rifle though both are capable of shooting MOA.



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Sebastian777
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Re: M193 vs M855

Postby Sebastian777 » Mon Mar 16, 2015 7:48 pm

Montanapatriot wrote:The entire premise of military ammo under the Geneva Convention of which the US is a signatory is that it is less lethal than commercial ammunition. It may not by the Convention be expansive, and if you hunt large game you know that you NEVER hunt with FMJ ammunition because it isn't effective or humane in killing quickly, due to the ice pick effect.
Why then is military ammo looked upon as something great by the civilian population? I believe it's that most believe that the military must procure the best. Hardly, they buy what meets the legal requirements of the treaty.
Every revision to the 5.56 round has been to *try* to make it perform like a larger caliber round,and none are truly successful. Barrier penetration? Not from a 22 caliber round. Long range potential? Not under less than favorable conditions. Lethality? Not with current available surplus supplies.
If you shoot 223 or 5.56, pick up your brass, learn to reload and you will have more effective ammo. IMHO.


It's actually a popular misconception that the Geneva Conventions has anything to do with expansive ammo. Those conventions, and their proceeding treaties and protocols, mainly dealt with the treatment of POW's and international criminals, list of international rules pertaining to civilians, and WMD's. It was the Hague Convention that mentioned expansive ammo.

Something interesting I found out while reading up on the topic is that the military has found it to be beneficial to use FMJ for the very reason that it is more likely to only wound. It's said that if you shoot a soldier and kill them, you have taken one out of the battle. But, "If a soldier is injured, it now takes two or more other people to carry him off, and another to treat his injures, and requires resources to transport him back to a medical unit."

The main reason, why people stock up on surplus is because it's the about the cheapest American manufactured 5.56's out there. 2 months ago, I could've bought 2000 rounds of Federal surplus ammo for $700. To get two thousand rounds of premium ammo I'd be looking around $2000. The reason why AR15/M16/M4's are so popular isn't because of their stopping power. It's because they are accurate, enough, will penetrate some light armor and barriers, and (most importantly) you can carry hundreds if not a thousand plus rounds on you.

Another good reason to buy surplus ammo is for the investment. It's not likely to go down in value unless you buy really high. Realizing what a 5.56 can and cannot do, while is surplus isn't the best of any major purpose, they are adequate if not good at everything. Also, in the unlikely event of economic crash, societal crash, government takeover, etc, etc; ammo will be a major currency. In an event like this, no one will care what they are getting in ammo so much as how many they are getting.

All that being said, I'm trying to find a couple of premium rounds stock a few boxes of.

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Re: M193 vs M855

Postby Montanapatriot » Mon Mar 16, 2015 9:28 pm

Sorry, got my international treaties mixed up.
The above statement of mine is still a fully valid argument. In the scenario where one needs to use their 5.56 rifle to defend themselves or others putting down the threat quickly is of greater benefit than tieing up a possible accomplice in their extrication from the battlefield. Which in the case of criminals doesn't happen.
In recent battlefield situations over the past 10 years our adversaries have often lived long enough to continue to fight after taking multiple rounds to the torso. I for one don't intend to tolerate that.
Keep all the ammo one wants for an investment, but for personal survival keep, purchase or load the better stuff.

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Re: M193 vs M855

Postby Montanapatriot » Tue Mar 17, 2015 5:55 pm

We don't accept FMJ handgun ammo as a worthy round for self defense, why then surplus FMJ rifle ammo when there are any number of far better commercial bullets available?

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Re: M193 vs M855

Postby hkguy » Tue Mar 17, 2015 6:27 pm

Montanapatriot wrote:We don't accept FMJ handgun ammo as a worthy round for self defense, why then surplus FMJ rifle ammo when there are any number of far better commercial bullets available?



big difference between pistol and rifle FMJ performance. check the vids i posted.
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Re: M193 vs M855

Postby Montanapatriot » Tue Mar 17, 2015 6:43 pm

They still ice pick, their design is to not expand. See my videos. Also, 1/4" mild steel penetration is "impressive", but it simply shatters. See Box O'Truth videos on its performance in drywall and other media.
A hit with SP in the torso or an unarmored leg with with lead core SP or monolithic Barnes ammo is a wound that won't wipe off.
Take a look on YouTube what they do to 10 lb prairie dogs, they vaporize.

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Re: M193 vs M855

Postby LWP » Tue Mar 17, 2015 9:18 pm

Montanapatriot wrote:We don't accept FMJ handgun ammo as a worthy round for self defense, why then surplus FMJ rifle ammo when there are any number of far better commercial bullets available?

MP, the bulk of the ammo I buy is not for self defense. It is for range practice. The SD ammo I buy is the good stuff, the range ammo is the cheapest available (no russian) so I can shoot a lot and improve my skill. Bulk surplus FMJ is good, cheap practice but even cheap .308 ball is plenty lethal.

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Re: M193 vs M855

Postby Montanapatriot » Tue Mar 17, 2015 9:52 pm

Nothing wrong with that. Save your brass and load it with good powder and bullets.

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Re: M193 vs M855

Postby Montanapatriot » Wed Mar 18, 2015 1:54 pm

Thus is what a 70gr Barnes monolithic does.
http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php ... erformance


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