Handgun vs AR15

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Sebastian777
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Handgun vs AR15

Postby Sebastian777 » Mon Jun 13, 2016 10:42 pm

While debating the Orlando shooting today, I made a claim that I'm looking for peronal confirmation for. My claim was that at close range with a person not wearing body armor, any service caliber handgun is going to be just about as effective as an AR15.

My thought process was that at indoor range, the velocity and stabilization of a 556 FMJ is likely to create an "ice pick wound" whereas a JHP from a handgun is going to expand and cause about the same amount of damage. Of course shot placement is the major factor, but assuming the same spot and angle, would my statement be roughly correct?

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Dubhan
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Re: Handgun vs AR15

Postby Dubhan » Tue Jun 14, 2016 12:37 am

Incorrect. 5.56 fragmentation is all about velocity. The closer you are the faster it is.

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Hand and Steel
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Re: Handgun vs AR15

Postby Hand and Steel » Tue Jun 14, 2016 1:42 am

Dubhan is indeed correct. The 5.56 also causes a substantial temporary wound cavity. If that disrupts the liver (non-elastic organ) or is close enough to traumatize other vital organs via shockwave, the victim is in trouble. Some research also suggests that hydrostatic shock from the high velocity cartridge can cause remote hemorrhaging, which again is bad.

If the statistics from the Orlando shooting (50 dead 53 wounded last I saw) are correct, it also leans in favor of the conclusion that the 5.56 is generally deadlier, since last I heard something in the vicinity of 80% of individuals shot with handguns survive.

This, of course, is no reason to ban the cartridge or the popular rifle that fires it. Instead, it just demonstrates why more nightclub owners need to hire armed security.
"Our great war is a spiritual war, our great depression is our lives."

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Sebastian777
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Re: Handgun vs AR15

Postby Sebastian777 » Tue Jun 14, 2016 2:23 pm

Not sure this would change the answer, but my statement was in terms of a concealed carrier vs a mass shooter. So it's more on the terms of stopping a close range threat. Again, I realize whoever gets the first well placed shot is probably gonna win, and has the element of surprise, just wondering if the concealed carrier is actually "outgunned" in the scenario where they are facing each other indoors.

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Re: Handgun vs AR15

Postby Dubhan » Tue Jun 14, 2016 4:31 pm

Just about any rifle besides a .22lr is going to beat the snot out of any handgun for stopping power. Period. Yeah in some sense a bullet is a bullet, and if the 5.56 doesnt reach fragmentation velocity (~2300 fps if i remember correctly) then it might as well be a really fast, heavy 22lr.... BUT indoors, 5.56 will most certainly fragment, and it will Fuck. You. Up. Yeah, good SD rounds mushroom and can give you good penetration, but when a 5.56 fragments, it gives you 10 or 15 wound channels. Its really not even the same thing. One is boring a hole through you, and the other is essentially setting off a tiny ied in your body cavity.

Whoever gets the first hit has an advantage in this scenario. The guy with a rifle has a MUCH larger first hit advantage (short of a head shot), and a much greater chance of taking his opponent out of action with that first hit.

The guy with a 9mm isn't "outgunned" up close against a rifle, he IS at a disadvantage tho. How much that disadvantage matters depends on a vast number situational variables.

If someone is trying to kill me in an auditorium with a rifle, my most important asset is cover, followed by concealment. Then Id love to have a rifle, but I sure would prefer a Glock to pocket change in the event that i have no choice but to engage or die...

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Re: Handgun vs AR15

Postby Nathan » Tue Jun 14, 2016 6:12 pm

From http://CarryGuide.com: "Some believe in big bullets, some believe in lighter, faster bullets with higher simple energy numbers, some believe in shot placement; all are equally mistaken. The potential effectiveness of any bullet in a defensive shooting is always an issue of probabilities that factor in caliber, weight, velocity (resulting in penetration and expansion), shot placement, and even the physical condition (drugs, rage, size, etc.) of the threat you are attempting to neutralize."

The only real deficit here is the mental aspects of engaging threat with a rifle when you have a handgun. A rifle may be superior but at this distance that doesn't make the handgun (assuming a service caliber that you can manipulate efficiently with authority) inferior or any less effective.
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Re: Handgun vs AR15

Postby Hand and Steel » Tue Jun 14, 2016 8:13 pm

Sebastian777 wrote:Again, I realize whoever gets the first well placed shot is probably gonna win, and has the element of surprise, just wondering if the concealed carrier is actually "outgunned" in the scenario where they are facing each other indoors.


Sure they're outgunned, but the gun is only one element of the equation, and a physical advantage can usually be overcome by attacking more aggressively or more intelligently. How to attack intelligently can be learned by studying tactics, but there is not necessarily going to be time (or presence of calm thinking) to be able to use the best tactics for the situation - so while we should learn tactics, we should plan for contingencies under which we will only ever be able to make use of simple, robust tactics, like running for cover before drawing and shooting, flanking through cover, or even a straight forward "shock" style attack where other options are not immediately available.

Aggressiveness is something that cannot be learned or given, but instead must be developed by the individual. Attacking aggressively and relentlessly, without thought given to personal safety (power given to fear) or hesitation, can often turn the tide of a fight that is not in your favor. Even outnumbered, outgunned, outclassed (skill wise), confused, and injured, many individuals have overcome incredibly unfavorable odds by casting aside fear and going all-in, attacking more aggressively than their adversaries thought possible.

Here's a good example of aggressiveness overcoming physical odds in the real world-



Being able to act that aggressively requires certain personality traits, which should be developed by any real man. First, you should KNOW definitively, within your own conscience, what evil is and what it looks like, and KNOW that you have every right to DESTROY IT, so that when you find yourself in a sh!t situation, confused, afraid, and having to make irreversible decisions of terrible consequence in an extremely compressed time frame, you can flip the switch and do it without hesitation. You also have to be at peace with the idea of dying beforehand - this is something no one can teach - you have to be comfortable yourself with the idea of your own death. You've got to be able to see the situation for what it is, recognize instantly that you may die right here, right now, and not panic - you've got to realize that if you die, you die! So what are you going to do about it? In this terrible delta, facing grossly unbalanced odds, you've got to ACT with total commitment, all-in! Let that raging fire within you incinerate fear so that only your WILL remains, focused in this moment on killing the son of a bitch trying to murder the innocents around you.

Odds aren't in your favor? He's got a Kalashnikov and all you've got is a pistol? No matter now! Run straight at the bastard emptying your magazine at him. He's got a friend behind him whose shooting too, and you're out of ammo? Grab that motherf#cker by the shirt and fracture his skull with your pistol. Scratch his f#cking eyes out, crush his testicles, drag his sorry ass to the ground, smash his head against the concrete, put your hands around his Goddamn worthless throat and crush his windpipe with all your strength and fury.

It's over now. If you survived, great - you couldn't ask for much more. If the wounds you might have taken, which you didn't notice during the fight, are too grievous, then you'll die knowing you saved the people you had to save. It would have been nice to avoid it altogether, but it wasn't your choice - some bastard decided to ruin your day, and that's something you couldn't have been in control of, but you were in control of what you did about it, and you did what you could with what you had.

There's the attitude behind "aggressiveness". That personality trait is more important than the speed, weight or shape of the bullets you have.
"Our great war is a spiritual war, our great depression is our lives."


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