Utah man kills burglar, but dies in the shootout. How would you have handled this situation

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Ohio9
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Utah man kills burglar, but dies in the shootout. How would you have handled this situation

Postby Ohio9 » Sat Oct 31, 2015 11:04 pm

A complex and dangerous situation resulted in a Utah man killing a burglar, but also dying in the shootout. What would you have done differently in this situation?

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/8656 ... e-say.html

I feel Jacobs probably would have been better off waiting in his house until the cops showed up, but of course who is to say the burglar wouldn't have broken in and harmed his family before they arrived? This is a situation where I really hate to play MMQB, but I still feel staying inside on "heightened alert" mode would have been the best thing to do.

Also there was no need to follow the guy when he left Jacobs' property. I get the desire to deal with a burglar who just tried to break in, but once he leaves it's time to return to base.

Finally, the story established there was more then one gun in the house, yet neither his wife nor his adult son seemed to have taken advantage of this. I get the desire to keep your family members out of harms way, but once they reach adulthood I think they should certainly be included in the home defense plan.

I have the utmost respect for a man who gave his life to successfully protect his family and neighborhood from a dangerous predator, but it looks like there were more then a few chances to avoid this fate in the process.

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Re: Utah man kills burglar, but dies in the shootout. How would you have handled this situation

Postby samuelrp » Sun Nov 01, 2015 10:14 am

RIP. He probably saved (future) lives when he gave his. Poor judges, laws, and a society that Holds no one accountable has pushed normal citizens into a corner. Yea, he could have retreated to a rear bedroom to make a last stand effort, but it appears the burglar was willing to kill anyone anywhere.
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Re: Utah man kills burglar, but dies in the shootout. How would you have handled this situation

Postby Ohio9 » Sun Nov 01, 2015 11:09 am

samuelrp wrote: Yea, he could have retreated to a rear bedroom to make a last stand effort, but it appears the burglar was willing to kill anyone anywhere.


He was clearly willing to kill to avoid going to prison, but I'm not sure he was out to kill people just for the hell of it. The homeowner found him hiding in the bushes, and he didn't open fire until he realized he was going followed as he left the house.

If he had simply waited for the cops to show up, perhaps they would have found him hiding in the bushes or walking away from the scene and they would have taken care of him. Of course it's also possible the guy would have tried to break in again, so I can't fault Jacobs too much. I just think returning to base and holding down the fort would have been the best option.

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Re: Utah man kills burglar, but dies in the shootout. How would you have handled this situation

Postby Nathan » Sun Nov 01, 2015 12:24 pm

Had he not gone outside and just called the cops who found him in the bushes, its possible he would have just killed the cop, too. When someone is intent on harming there is no stopping them because they have the element of surprise. Sad to say, but sometimes about the best you can hope for is that you take them with you so that they can't harm anyone else. :(
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Re: Utah man kills burglar, but dies in the shootout. How would you have handled this situation

Postby Ohio9 » Sun Nov 01, 2015 12:34 pm

Nathan wrote:Had he not gone outside and just called the cops who found him in the bushes, its possible he would have just killed the cop, too.


Possible, but less likely, since they would have the advantage of superior numbers and body armor: body armor that would have almost certainly stopped the blast that killed Jacobs.

Nathan wrote: Sad to say, but sometimes about the best you can hope for is that you take them with you so that they can't harm anyone else. :(


So you would not have done anything different then what Jacobs did under the same circumstances?

Meanwhile I find his choice to ditch the .45 in favor of a .357 revolver interesting. He only made 1 of 4 hits with the.357 (after being fatally wounded), but his one hit was a "one shot stop". Personally I would have picked the .45.

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Re: Utah man kills burglar, but dies in the shootout. How would you have handled this situation

Postby Nathan » Sun Nov 01, 2015 2:32 pm

That would assume that he shot him in the exact same place as the other guy...but all that is speculation. The whole story is sad, except of course that the bad guy also died and cannot hurt anyone else. I would have done a lot different than he did, including but not limited to shooting through the dang door while he was trying to kick it in. If I feel threatened I'm not going to wait until he breeches my door giving him direct access to my family. If I were carrying a .45 I wouldn't double back for a .357. If I were carrying a .357 I wouldn't double back for a .45. I would feel equally confident with either, but the same could be said if I were carrying a 9mm. I hate reading any story where the homeowner had to go retrieve a firearm; every homeowner should already be wearing one in my opinion.
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Re: Utah man kills burglar, but dies in the shootout. How would you have handled this situation

Postby Ohio9 » Sun Nov 01, 2015 2:49 pm

Nathan wrote:That would assume that he shot him in the exact same place as the other guy...but all that is speculation.


I understand that, I just feel the police would have had better chances due to body armor and numbers.

Another lesson from this story is that owning body armor is a good idea. If Jacobs had enough time to swap weapons out before checking his yard, that means he also had enough time to put a vest on. Does anyone here own their own body armor?

Nathan wrote:. I would have done a lot different than he did, including but not limited to shooting through the dang door while he was trying to kick it in.


I have to disagree with this. In addition to violating one of the 4 basic rules of gun safety, this would open you up to a plethora of criminal and/or civil penalties (as well as a possible lifetime of trauma and regret) if turns out the guy was just some drunk teenager stumbling home who got the wrong house and started pounding on the door out of frustration.

If you have looked out the window or through a peep hole to identify the guy as a bandit, then sure, fire away. But I do not believe in shooting through a door at a target I have not identified, even if I am 99% sure that target means me harm.

Nathan wrote: If I were carrying a .45 I wouldn't double back for a .357. If I were carrying a .357 I wouldn't double back for a .45. I would feel equally confident with either, but the same could be said if I were carrying a 9mm. I hate reading any story where the homeowner had to go retrieve a firearm; every homeowner should already be wearing one in my opinion.


This I agree with. I have never fired a .357 personally, but I make it a rule to never designate a gun as a home defense gun if I am not comfortable with using it. Any gun I keep ready for defense is a gun I am confident with and will not need to be replaced in an ongoing incident.

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Re: Utah man kills burglar, but dies in the shootout. How would you have handled this situation

Postby Nathan » Sun Nov 01, 2015 3:11 pm

I should have included more detail. The instant you push my doorbell the camera sends your video to my phone. I can also see video by opening the app if you don't. Start kicking my door with a shotgun in your hand and I'm gong to shoot you through the door. I did not mean to intend to communicate that I would blindly start shooting.

I have many home defense guns that I wouldn't carry. My HK45 is a perfect example. It's just too dang big for daily carry but makes a great home defense gun.
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Re: Utah man kills burglar, but dies in the shootout. How would you have handled this situation

Postby Nathan » Sun Nov 01, 2015 3:14 pm

In fact, for home defense I would probably prefer .45 because it is equally effective yet won't penetrate as many walls.
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Re: Utah man kills burglar, but dies in the shootout. How would you have handled this situation

Postby Ohio9 » Sun Nov 01, 2015 4:07 pm

Nathan wrote:I should have included more detail. The instant you push my doorbell the camera sends your video to my phone. I can also see video by opening the app if you don't. Start kicking my door with a shotgun in your hand and I'm gong to shoot you through the door. I did not mean to intend to communicate that I would blindly start shooting.

I have many home defense guns that I wouldn't carry. My HK45 is a perfect example. It's just too dang big for daily carry but makes a great home defense gun.


Okay that clears things up. I didn't realized you had such a high tech monitoring system on your front door.

I said I would not designate a gun as a home defense gun if I wasn't comfortable with using it. By "use", I meant accurately hitting the target, not carrying the gun. I too have some guns I have used for home defense, but not for CCW, such as my service pistol (A full size XD40) and my Beretta M9.

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Re: Utah man kills burglar, but dies in the shootout. How would you have handled this situation

Postby Nathan » Sun Nov 01, 2015 7:22 pm

Ohio9 wrote:I didn't realized you had such a high tech monitoring system on your front door.

Best thing invented. Mine also has motion capability but it was turning on the camera every time a car would drive past and that got annoying. There are many brands with various options and it really isn't that expensive. It's nice knowing who is standing at your door. It also gives you capability to speak with them. They ring your doorbell and it connects to your phone and you can pretend to be home even when you aren't and just tell them to go away.


http://www.amazon.com/s/?ie=UTF8&keywor ... stfj6579_e
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Re: Utah man kills burglar, but dies in the shootout. How would you have handled this situation

Postby Hand and Steel » Sun Nov 01, 2015 7:27 pm

-Should have had the gun he was most confident with already on him by the time he reached the door
-Should have chased the thug off at gunpoint, not followed him
-Should have read the ruse - any time an antagonist has a hand hidden, it must be assumed that they have a weapon and are ready to kill you

Sad all around. I have no idea why the individuals who attempted to provide first aid wasted any time on the thug with the shotgun instead of focusing on their neighbor.
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Re: Utah man kills burglar, but dies in the shootout. How would you have handled this situation

Postby Dubhan » Mon Nov 02, 2015 7:56 am

I have actually been in a similar situation as how this started. Some douchebag started by kicking the front door and then slowly tried every window and door in the house. We yelled loudly enough to get his attention, but he was clearly in a special place.

I put the wife in the safest spot in the house, gave her the phone, tracked his movements best I could, and hung tight. I'm never more than 10 feet from a weapon, and that night I had one in my pocket. Nothing I've got is worth dying over, except my people. If he had made it in, I would have had a bad day. His would have been much worse.

He didn't. The cops showed up right after he wandered off. I wouldn't have followed him unless I felt a neighbor was in danger, but the delay between him wandering off and the cops rolling in was quite short, so I didn't have to make that choice.

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Re: Utah man kills burglar, but dies in the shootout. How would you have handled this situation

Postby Ohio9 » Mon Nov 02, 2015 11:34 am

Dubhan wrote:
I put the wife in the safest spot in the house, gave her the phone,


Just a phone? No spare guns in the house?

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Re: Utah man kills burglar, but dies in the shootout. How would you have handled this situation

Postby MisterB » Mon Nov 02, 2015 3:30 pm

Dubhan wrote:I have actually been in a similar situation as how this started. Some douchebag started by kicking the front door and then slowly tried every window and door in the house. We yelled loudly enough to get his attention, but he was clearly in a special place.

I put the wife in the safest spot in the house, gave her the phone, tracked his movements best I could, and hung tight. I'm never more than 10 feet from a weapon, and that night I had one in my pocket. Nothing I've got is worth dying over, except my people. If he had made it in, I would have had a bad day. His would have been much worse.

He didn't. The cops showed up right after he wandered off. I wouldn't have followed him unless I felt a neighbor was in danger, but the delay between him wandering off and the cops rolling in was quite short, so I didn't have to make that choice.


Where's the like button? Way to handle it properly. Go outside in such an instance, and you give the criminal the upper hand, who has the advantage of hiding in darkness behind cover, while you exit in the open through an easily determined door. Stay inside, arm yourself, take cover, call the police, and listen carefully. Now the criminal loses the upper hand, should they come inside. Oh, and this talk of firing through the front door? Be very careful. Camera or not, you might not know for sure what you're looking at. Could be a drunk guy with an umbrella. The DA would tee you up. Now, they come inside, that's another thing, but you gotta REALLY be careful.

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Re: Utah man kills burglar, but dies in the shootout. How would you have handled this situation

Postby yankeejib » Mon Nov 02, 2015 4:34 pm

Ohio9 wrote: I have never fired a .357


You sound like a perfect candidate for a S&W 686+ wheelie. You won't find a sweeter trigger.
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Re: Utah man kills burglar, but dies in the shootout. How would you have handled this situation

Postby Ohio9 » Mon Nov 02, 2015 5:33 pm

yankeejib wrote:
Ohio9 wrote: I have never fired a .357


You sound like a perfect candidate for a S&W 686+ wheelie. You won't find a sweeter trigger.


I'm not so sure. That thing looks like a cannon disguised as a revolver.

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Re: Utah man kills burglar, but dies in the shootout. How would you have handled this situation

Postby Hand and Steel » Mon Nov 02, 2015 9:43 pm

I remember the first time I shot a .357... Damn that was a good day :)
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Re: Utah man kills burglar, but dies in the shootout. How would you have handled this situation

Postby Dubhan » Tue Nov 03, 2015 12:00 am

Ohio9 wrote:
Dubhan wrote:
I put the wife in the safest spot in the house, gave her the phone,


Just a phone? No spare guns in the house?


Yeah, we have extras, but situational dynamics demanded the course of action I took. This house (a rental) had several sliders, lots of windows, and my wife isn't much of a fighter. Douchebag was doing his best to get in and could have decided to break glass at any instant. She's hunkered down behind heavy furniture talking to the Sheriff's dispatch, and I'm between her and all risks, armed, in a fairly defensible position assuming douchebag wasn't toting a rifle. If he had crashed through the slider at the moment I was running for a backup, he could have gotten between us. It wasn't worth giving up our advantage or leaving one or both of us vulnerable for the 5 to 10 seconds it would have taken to grab another weapon and more ammo.

Pocket carrying in the house is just a good idea. This could have gone another way easily, and if I hadn't been carrying or in a room with a weapon, I would have been forced to move and put our backs to avenues of attack.

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Re: Utah man kills burglar, but dies in the shootout. How would you have handled this situation

Postby Dubhan » Tue Nov 03, 2015 1:07 am

One more observation regarding 911 interaction.

Put someone on the phone with a level head. My wife initially panicked, and blurted out things without thinking like "He's coming", and "My husband has a gun!". I don't thing this helped us, and could have potentially hurt us. We lived in a rural county with an elected Sheriff (this makes a difference in some places, the local PDs with appointed Chiefs are way more aggressive), but even there, despite our local deputies usually being polite and professional, they had a habit of shooting any perceived threat, so I didn't under any circumstances want that perceived threat to be me.

So when my wife said the deputies were a couple of minutes out, I asked her to hand me the phone, and I spoke with the dispatcher, explained where we were in the house, where I thought the attempted burglar was at that time, and made it clear that the house was clear, and that the deputies shouldn't attempt to enter the house unless they perceived an immediate risk to life. He didn't like that, got all butthurt and imperious and demanded to know why I was refusing his deputies access to my home.

I explained that 1. the house was clear, 2. they were responding to an outside threat, 3. They had no probable cause or exigent circumstances to enter, and 4. I was armed, within my rights to be so, and didn't want to get shot due to a misunderstanding.

That calmed him a bit, and we negotiated a protocol. The deputies arrived, and the dispatcher called me so that I wouldn't respond badly to outside noise. Once the immediate threat was clear, he called me and I agreed to "put my weapon away" before the deputies came to the door, which meant it went back in my pocket. The deputies knocked, I stepped outside the house while my wife locked the door behind me, and I described what happened. They left to investigate, and came back after talking to neighbors and discovering a sort of kluged observation post that Douchebag had used to watch us from.

They were professional, and did their jobs while respecting my rights because I asserted them calmly. If they had been inclined to fuck with me, I didn't present an easy target for it.

If I had done it their way, they'd have likely barged into my home to 'clear it'. I don't know these guys, or whether they are good or bad. The power they have to create offenses is huge, and I wasn't going to jail that night. So doing it their way was out.

If I had come off as some crazy "I know my rights!" guy, I probably would have gone to jail or gotten shot as well.

IMHO, when dealing with intruders, stay calm, find a defensible position, and defend yourself and your family aggressively if you are forced to.

When dealing with the state, know your rights, assert them politely and calmly, and know when to simply stop interacting or cooperating. Don't resist, because that is just going to get you killed, but if your interaction with the state goes sideways, fuck it, let them kick the door in if they insist on it. Just make sure you are in an absolutely un-threatening posture, use un-threatening language, and assuming you survive the encounter, recover your losses from the tax payers. In a perfect world, you could sue the actual offenders into oblivion, but sadly, our world is far from perfect.

Great discussion.

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Re: Utah man kills burglar, but dies in the shootout. How would you have handled this situation

Postby Dubhan » Tue Nov 03, 2015 1:27 am

Ohio9 wrote:Another lesson from this story is that owning body armor is a good idea. If Jacobs had enough time to swap weapons out before checking his yard, that means he also had enough time to put a vest on. Does anyone here own their own body armor?


I don't, but two sets are on 'the list'. Let's hope I get around to it before needing it, or no longer being allowed to buy it.

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Re: Utah man kills burglar, but dies in the shootout. How would you have handled this situation

Postby Hand and Steel » Wed Nov 04, 2015 1:59 am

Textbook way to handle it. Protecting loved ones comes before all other priorities.

+1 on carrying in the house. It makes no sense to carry religiously outside of the house, and then leave your gun in some potentially inaccessible spot once you get in.
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Re: Utah man kills burglar, but dies in the shootout. How would you have handled this situation

Postby samuelrp » Wed Nov 04, 2015 5:28 pm

Doesn't shooting through the door policy vary by state?
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Re: Utah man kills burglar, but dies in the shootout. How would you have handled this situation

Postby Nathan » Wed Nov 04, 2015 5:42 pm

samuelrp wrote:Doesn't shooting through the door policy vary by state?

Most likely, but someone holding a shotgun trying to kick in your door should be a clear issue of self defense anywhere. Please note that I was working off my own experience where I would have video evidence of a shotgun wielding intruder before shooting through the door.
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