A video for those who think Glocks never fail

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Nathan
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Re: A video for those who think Glocks never fail

Postby Nathan » Wed May 06, 2015 5:53 pm

Ohio9 wrote: The fact that his thumb is in position to use the slide release is not proof that he actually used it.
That's the most ridiculous thing you've ever said on this forum. The guy is in the middle of a firefight shooting for his life. The slide is clearly locked back fully, and his thumb is clearly positioned to release it. Why in hell would he position his thumb over the slide release for any reason other than to press it? This is silly.


I disagree.
Of course you do. You set out from the beginning to discredit Glock (see title) and nothing will stand in your way.


It seems very clear that is a casing being ejected from the gun, not a live round.
There is nothing "clear" on this video other than his thumb is clearly on top of the slide release on a slide that's fully locked back.


I don't see the slide going forward before he racks the action.
You won't due to the extent of video compression.
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Re: A video for those who think Glocks never fail

Postby Nathan » Wed May 06, 2015 5:58 pm

the925life wrote:Can you post a screen shot of the exact moment the slide moves forward before he racks it manually? I'm not seeing it.
No I cannot because of the extent of video compression. Typical video runs around 29 frames per second. This one is running somewhere around 5. The slide closes too quickly to capture it at such a slow frame rate. If you watch the video in slow motion it's a little more obvious. I could attempt the edit but honestly I just don't care enough to spend several hours doing this (video editing/cleaning is a total pain in the dick).

Does anyone even know what caliber gun this department issues? It should be easy enough to compare OAL against static measurements of the gun but even then shadows in grainy video can play tricks.

At the end of the day, people are going to see what they want to see. The only thing clear to me in this video is his thumb on the slide release on a fully locked slide. There are also more than enough tactical errors to at the very least present a reasonable doubt on the nature of this failure.

...that the haters jizz over any level of Glock failure says everything that needs to be said of Glock reliability.
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Re: A video for those who think Glocks never fail

Postby the925life » Wed May 06, 2015 6:20 pm

I did a bunch of Googling about the department and couldn't find any details about their issued equipment so I emailed one of the local reporters asking the model/caliber question. To my eye that's an empty 40 S&W casing at the 1:57 mark, but I'm man enough to eat crow if I hear otherwise. I will post that information if/when I get it.

I don't have a dog in this fight so it isn't about bias on my end. To me this isn't about discrediting Glock's perfection. I own and carry Glocks almost exclusively, and trust them more than any other. They're easily top of the heap when it comes to reliability - I agree with you there Nathan, no equivocation - but, they are mechanical devices and can fail. Nothing is perfect, and saying so is no knock against them. Saying they are perfectly reliable is foolish, just like saying this (or any single) instance of failure means they're junk.

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Re: A video for those who think Glocks never fail

Postby Ohio9 » Wed May 06, 2015 6:40 pm

Nathan wrote:You set out from the beginning to discredit Glock (see title) and nothing will stand in your way.


Oh sure, if I disagree, it must be because i'm biased. Of course, there is no way someone like you, who loves glocks and constantly sings praises about their reliability, could have a viewpoint influenced by bias, now could you?

Nathan wrote:Why in hell would he position his thumb over the slide release for any reason other than to press it? This is silly.


Because that could simply be a natural position to put his thumb in due to how he normally operates the weapon.

If I had seen the slide go forward without him racking it, I would agree he used that slide release. But I didn't. I didn't see the slide go forward until after he racked the weapon.

Nathan wrote:...that the haters jizz over any level of Glock failure says everything that needs to be said of Glock reliability.


I didn't post this video to suggest that Glocks are crappy guns that no one should ever buy. I made to point out that Glocks can and sometimes do fail. This fact doesn't make Glocks bad guns. It makes them guns that can fail like all others.

Nathan wrote:Anyone know what caliber gun this department issues? It should be easy enough to compare OAL against static measurements of the gun but even then shadows in grainy video can play tricks.


Sadly I have not been able to find that information. however, I did find this article, which confirms there were other officers at the scene besides the one with the Camera (Brian Barnett). However, it also confirms that Barnett fired the fatal shots that ended the gunfight: He fired 4 times and made 3 center mass hits:

http://sandspringsleader.com/sspd-ident ... 58c64.html

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Re: A video for those who think Glocks never fail

Postby Nathan » Wed May 06, 2015 6:54 pm

Ohio9 wrote:Oh sure, if I disagree, it must be because i'm biased.
Look at the title of this conversation. Your bias/agenda was clear from your very first post. That's fine, but call it what it is.


Of course, there is no way someone like you, who loves glocks and constantly sings praises about their reliability, could have a viewpoint influenced by bias, now could you?
I don't typically post "Glock performed reliably" else it would fill the forum.

...and I don't love Glocks; I love proper function.


Because that could simply be a natural position to put his thumb in due to how he normally operates the weapon.
(?) Is that seriously your response? Nobody trains to ride over the top of the slide release. Nobody.

Please, offer one single plausible explanation for why he is clearly pressing against the slide release.
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Re: A video for those who think Glocks never fail

Postby Pickwick » Wed May 06, 2015 6:58 pm

When he racked the slide did it go "glock-glock?"

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Re: A video for those who think Glocks never fail

Postby Ohio9 » Wed May 06, 2015 6:58 pm

Nathan wrote:I don't typically post "Glock performed reliably" else it would fill the forum.


Precisely my point. You love glocks and can't mention them without praising their reliability in some way. I simply posted this video to show Glocks can fail, not that they routinely fail or that no one should ever use them.

I'm not a glock hater. On the contrary, I look forward to trying out the 43 as soon as I can find a rental range that has one.


Nathan wrote:Anyone know what caliber gun this department issues? It should be easy enough to compare OAL against static measurements of the gun but even then shadows in grainy video can play tricks.


Sadly I have not been able to find that information. however, I did find this article, which confirms there were other officers at the scene besides the one with the Camera (Brian Barnett). However, it also confirms that Barnett fired the fatal shots that ended the gunfight: He fired 4 times and made 3 center mass hits:

http://sandspringsleader.com/sspd-ident ... 58c64.html

Nathan wrote:Please, offer one single plausible explanation for why he is clearly pressing against the slide release.


All I saw was his thumb near the slide release. I didn't see him press it, because if he did, then the slide would go forward, which it didn't. The slide didn't go forward until he racked the gun, and when he did, it ejected a shell casing. I don't know how you can deny seeing the void in the casing where the bullet would be if that was a live round.

Freeze the video at 1:57 and you can clearly see what I'm talking about. You will see the casing in mid-air with a black void where the bullet used to be in it.
Last edited by Ohio9 on Wed May 06, 2015 7:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: A video for those who think Glocks never fail

Postby yankeejib » Wed May 06, 2015 7:03 pm

Keep debating. I'll keep trusting.
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Doing what others find impossible is genius,
Why be difficult when, with a little more effort, you can be entirely impossible.

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Re: A video for those who think Glocks never fail

Postby Nathan » Wed May 06, 2015 7:52 pm

Ohio9 wrote:All I saw was his thumb near the slide release.


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His thumb isn't "near" the slide release; his thumb is on the slide release. The slide is clearly locked fully to the rear.


The slide didn't go forward until he racked the gun, and when he did, it ejected a shell casing.
If the slide is already fully to the rear, how would racking it from that point eject a casing? Direct answer please.


I don't know how you can deny seeing the void in the casing where the bullet would be if that was a live round.
You cannot tell with any certainty either; the video is too grainy. It could easily be shadowing around a silvertip hollowpoint. I've attempted to expand and clarify that image far more time than it's worth. There is no way to say for certain either way if that is a casing or a live round because you cannot see the end of it. What you can say with certainty however is that his thumb is on the slide release and the slide release is locked fully to the rear. Racking it from that point isn't going to eject anything; it's already fully to the rear.
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Re: A video for those who think Glocks never fail

Postby the925life » Wed May 06, 2015 9:10 pm

I received a response to my email. The information packet submitted by SSPD to the media will be reviewed for specific information about the firearm/caliber used by the officer, and if this report lacks that information she will request comment from the Deputy Chief.

Hopefully more to follow on this.

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Re: A video for those who think Glocks never fail

Postby Ohio9 » Wed May 06, 2015 9:44 pm

Nathan wrote:If the slide is already fully to the rear, how would racking it from that point eject a casing?


I've been wondering that myself. I'm guessing it wasn't fully to the rear, just close to it.

At the same time, I also want to know how we don't see the slide go forward until he racked the gun. If he used the slide release, we should have been able to see the results.

Also, you're claiming he had the precense of mind to use the slide release, but then instantly forgot and decided to rack the gun for no reason afterwords?

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Re: A video for those who think Glocks never fail

Postby Nathan » Wed May 06, 2015 10:00 pm

Ohio9 wrote:I've been wondering that myself. I'm guessing it wasn't fully to the rear, just close to it.
Anywhere near and the casing would have already hit the ejector and deflected out well before the slide got that far back.


At the same time, I also want to know how we don't see the slide go forward until he racked the gun. If he used the slide release, we should have been able to see the results.
No you wouldn't, as I explained above:
Nathan wrote:No I cannot because of the extent of video compression. Typical video runs around 29 frames per second. This one is running somewhere around 5. The slide closes too quickly to capture it at such a slow frame rate.



Also, you're claiming he had the precense of mind to use the slide release, but then instantly forgot and decided to rack the gun for no reason afterwords?
No; he would rack the gun due to his training. "Tap rack bang". He realized that tapping would do nothing because the slide is locked back. He released the slide and continued with the steps he was taught to perform. Absolutely plausible.
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Re: A video for those who think Glocks never fail

Postby Ohio9 » Wed May 06, 2015 10:15 pm

Wow this is turning into something like an analysis of the Kennedy assasination. On one hand, how the gun ejected a casing with the slide that far back is odd. At the same time, we should be able see the slide go forward if he used the slide release, and now matter how many times I look at what flies out of the gun, it still appears to be a casing, not a live round.

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Re: A video for those who think Glocks never fail

Postby Nathan » Thu May 07, 2015 12:14 pm

Ohio9 wrote:Wow this is turning into something like an analysis of the Kennedy assasination.
...we take pride in complicating shit. :D

My explanation is the only plausible one; apply Occam's Razor. The slide is already fully to the rear (I can lock my slide back and take a picture if you like). Pulling it rearward from that point would not eject a case. I'm sure we agree on that much. The only plausible explanation, based on that his thumb is clearly on the slide release, is that he released the slide and it closed too fast for the crappy video. You can somewhat make it out watching the video in slow motion. He then racked the slide as he is trained to do following a failure. It looks like an empty casing but with the crappy video I cannot say for sure. It could just as easily be a Silvertip or something comparable with shadowing.
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Re: A video for those who think Glocks never fail

Postby Hand and Steel » Thu May 07, 2015 5:47 pm

Glocks can fail same as any gun. I've seen it personally, had it happen while shooting a Glock (and no, I was not "limp wristing"), and heard about it many times. Glocks are great guns (if you like the ergonomics of the 1980s brick phone and don't mind it being made from the same materials), but on this side of the grave there is no such thing as "Perfection". If Glock is your thing, then rest assured that you have a very well made and reliable gun. If you prefer something different, there is no shortage of other really excellent firearms.
"Our great war is a spiritual war, our great depression is our lives."

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Re: A video for those who think Glocks never fail

Postby Nathan » Thu May 07, 2015 6:48 pm

I've personally never witnessed a Glock failure of any kind except for guns that were modified with aftermarket trigger groups, guide rod laser replacements, etc. I've heard it happens, though. :D
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Re: A video for those who think Glocks never fail

Postby yankeejib » Thu May 07, 2015 7:59 pm

I've assessed you all 25 DefensiveCarry homo points for debating Glock reliability. You will need to apologize to each other with a tongue kiss and produce a letter from your mother explaining your disrespect before moderators will allow you to have another opinion.
Sincerely,
Professor Stu Padasol

Doing what others find difficult is talent.
Doing what others find impossible is genius,
Why be difficult when, with a little more effort, you can be entirely impossible.

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Re: A video for those who think Glocks never fail

Postby Eric_in_FL » Fri May 08, 2015 7:12 am

yankeejib wrote:I've assessed you all 25 DefensiveCarry homo points for debating Glock reliability. You will need to apologize to each other with a tongue kiss and produce a letter from your mother explaining your disrespect before moderators will allow you to have another opinion.


LMFAO


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