The NRA is caving in

Carry law and matters dealing with the 2nd. Amendment.
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Ohio9
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The NRA is caving in

Postby Ohio9 » Wed Jun 15, 2016 5:54 pm

The NRA is dropping their opposition to using the terror watch list to ban people from owning guns

https://www.nraila.org/articles/2016061 ... watchlists

They talk about due process, but I didn't see anything in this statement saying the government would have to prove the person they want to block is guilty of a crime. Seems like they are just taking the easy way out.

This should also be a wakeup call to anyone who thinks Trump is going to take a stand for gun rights if elected. He'd be better then Hillary, but still not ideal.

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Re: The NRA is caving in

Postby samuelrp » Wed Jun 15, 2016 6:09 pm

I saw Remington 9mm ammo last week for $9 per box. Its taken 7 years to bring prices down, but I fear prices tripling soon.
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Hand and Steel
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Re: The NRA is caving in

Postby Hand and Steel » Thu Jun 16, 2016 2:36 am

Remember, the NRA once supported the whole "smart guns" idea as well. They're not nearly as pro-freedom as groups like GOA.
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Ohio9
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Re: The NRA is caving in

Postby Ohio9 » Thu Jun 16, 2016 8:29 am

Hand and Steel wrote:Remember, the NRA once supported the whole "smart guns" idea as well. They're not nearly as pro-freedom as groups like GOA.


What's wrong with supporting that? I'm perfectly okay with the existence of smart guns, I just don't want the technology to be mandatory in firearms, which is the NRA's position.

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Re: The NRA is caving in

Postby Nathan » Thu Jun 16, 2016 9:27 am

Ohio9 wrote:The NRA is dropping their opposition to using the terror watch list to ban people from owning guns.

That's not how I read it at all. The NRA has never opposed banning people on a watch list. The opposition was in denying due process to those people to get off the list if placed on there by mistake. Senator Ted Kennedy was accidentally placed on a no-fly list and even with his political power it took him months to get removed from the list. Someone like you or me would never be removed thus we would be stripped of a Constitutionally protected freedom and then denied due process to get it back. Due process is a cornerstone of our republic.
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Ohio9
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Re: The NRA is caving in

Postby Ohio9 » Thu Jun 16, 2016 10:30 am

Nathan wrote:
Ohio9 wrote:The NRA is dropping their opposition to using the terror watch list to ban people from owning guns.

That's not how I read it at all. The NRA has never opposed banning people on a watch list. The opposition was in denying due process to those people to get off the list if placed on there by mistake. Senator Ted Kennedy was accidentally placed on a no-fly list and even with his political power it took him months to get removed from the list. Someone like you or me would never be removed thus we would be stripped of a Constitutionally protected freedom and then denied due process to get it back. Due process is a cornerstone of our republic.


Up to now, I never heard them say they were okay with banning people on the list from owning guns. The issue isn't just making sure people who get placed on the list by mistake are able to get off it. The main issue is that the government shouldn't be able to take away a constitutional right just by putting someone's name on a list. They should have to prove the person is guilty of something before taking away their rights, even if their suspicions are well-founded.

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Re: The NRA is caving in

Postby Nathan » Thu Jun 16, 2016 11:08 am

Ohio9 wrote:They should have to prove the person is guilty of something before taking away their rights, even if their suspicions are well-founded.

That's exactly what Due Process is.
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Re: The NRA is caving in

Postby Ohio9 » Thu Jun 16, 2016 1:34 pm

My point exactly. Even if there is a valid reason to put someone on the list, they shouldn't lose their rights unless the government can prove they have committed on offense. That's the position the NRA used to have, but now they seem to be giving it up.

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Re: The NRA is caving in

Postby Nathan » Thu Jun 16, 2016 2:15 pm

That is still their position as I interpret what they said in that link. The slightest deviation and I will scream the loudest, but I don't see any deviation. Their rejection all along has been the lack of due process. If your significant other gets a restraining order against you, you lose your gun rights immediately but you still get due process to get them back.
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Re: The NRA is caving in

Postby Ohio9 » Thu Jun 16, 2016 3:15 pm

What concerns me with the NRA release is in regard to "safegaurds", they only mentioned them for people put on the list by mistake. They didn't mention cases where the government intentionally puts someone on the list due to suspicion, but lacks proof they have committed any offense.

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Re: The NRA is caving in

Postby hkguy » Thu Jun 16, 2016 3:33 pm

the problem with using the list at all.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/14/nyreg ... .html?_r=2
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Re: The NRA is caving in

Postby Hand and Steel » Thu Jun 16, 2016 11:09 pm

Ohio, the problem with the NRA getting behind the idea of smart guns, was that at the time, the Demoncrats were trying to make it mandatory, so we have a case of bad association here. If memory serves correctly, the NRA was also at one time in favor of using imprinted firing pins like are found on Hi-Points to make it easier for forensic teams to identify the gun an spent cartridge was ejected from, despite the fact that the tip of the firing pin could be filed down easily. This was in the mid to late 90s if I remember correctly, when the NRA had toned down the fiery rhetoric it had for a time following the Waco massacre.
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Re: The NRA is caving in

Postby Ohio9 » Fri Jun 17, 2016 11:59 am

Hand and Steel wrote:Ohio, the problem with the NRA getting behind the idea of smart guns, was that at the time, the Demoncrats were trying to make it mandatory, so we have a case of bad association here. If memory serves correctly, the NRA was also at one time in favor of using imprinted firing pins like are found on Hi-Points to make it easier for forensic teams to identify the gun an spent cartridge was ejected from, despite the fact that the tip of the firing pin could be filed down easily. This was in the mid to late 90s if I remember correctly, when the NRA had toned down the fiery rhetoric it had for a time following the Waco massacre.


I don't recall the NRA ever advocating that smart guns or microstamping devices be mandated. Do you have any citation for this?

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Re: The NRA is caving in

Postby Hand and Steel » Fri Jun 17, 2016 2:14 pm

Ohio, I'll try to find a source for the microstamping issue. I do not believe they wanted smart gun technology to be mandatory, but I seem to remember it was done as part of a "compromise", in a manner out of character with the usual style of the NRA.

As I said, this is from memory, and was close to twenty years ago. I'll search for sources regarding the microstamping issue.
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Ohio9
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Re: The NRA is caving in

Postby Ohio9 » Sat Jun 18, 2016 1:27 pm

Even if that was their old position, that doesn't necessarily hold relevance now. Back in the 1930s, the NRA president said he was opposed to legal gun carrying except in very limited circumstances. Obviously that's not the case today.

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Re: The NRA is caving in

Postby 11bravo » Mon Jun 20, 2016 3:40 pm

Ohio9 wrote:Even if that was their old position, that doesn't necessarily hold relevance now. Back in the 1930s, the NRA president said he was opposed to legal gun carrying except in very limited circumstances. Obviously that's not the case today.


So the NRA did tell the truth once up a time. Kinda shocked they would do that.

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Ohio9
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Re: The NRA is caving in

Postby Ohio9 » Mon Jun 20, 2016 6:44 pm

11bravo wrote:
Ohio9 wrote:Even if that was their old position, that doesn't necessarily hold relevance now. Back in the 1930s, the NRA president said he was opposed to legal gun carrying except in very limited circumstances. Obviously that's not the case today.


So the NRA did tell the truth once up a time. Kinda shocked they would do that.


You think the NRA opposes concealed carry today?

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Re: The NRA is caving in

Postby 11bravo » Tue Jun 21, 2016 8:40 pm

I think don't care as much about our rights as they do getting your money.

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Ohio9
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Re: The NRA is caving in

Postby Ohio9 » Wed Jun 22, 2016 10:46 am

Name one organization that has done more to protect gun rights in America then they have.

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Re: The NRA is caving in

Postby Nathan » Wed Jun 22, 2016 11:53 am

I have to agree; there are many great groups out there (GOA, SAF, etc.) but nobody comes close to doing what the NRA has done for gun rights.
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Ohio9
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Re: The NRA is caving in

Postby Ohio9 » Wed Jun 22, 2016 12:26 pm

There may be some groups more passionately and ideologically dedicated to gun rights then the NRA, but I simply cannot think of any group that has produced the actual results for gun rights like the NRA has.

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Re: The NRA is caving in

Postby 11bravo » Wed Jun 22, 2016 11:19 pm

Well here they helped us loss rights and did so willingly. Yeah I'll never be behind them.

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Ohio9
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Re: The NRA is caving in

Postby Ohio9 » Thu Jun 23, 2016 2:55 am

11bravo wrote:Well here they helped us loss rights and did so willingly.


How so?

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Re: The NRA is caving in

Postby Hand and Steel » Thu Jun 23, 2016 4:52 am

I agree with 11bravo. Unless the NRA turns this around, they'll be helping to set a dangerous precedent for the legal violation of firearms rights by watchlist.
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Re: The NRA is caving in

Postby 11bravo » Fri Jun 24, 2016 11:30 am

We, had a great bill go through here a few years ago, then the NRA got a hold of it. They are the reason that no weapon signs now carry the weight of law. It had removed the need for a ccp to have a weapon in your vehicle, they lobbied to have that removed from the bill, What actually passed when the NRA was done with, we gained almost nothing and loss a few big ones, thanks to the NRA.


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