Prison for selling guns legally

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Prison for selling guns legally

Postby Nathan » Fri Sep 09, 2016 11:56 am

18 month sentence to man for buying and selling guns on Gunbroker. The implications...

http://www.guns.com/2016/09/09/man-who- ... s-in-jail/
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Re: Prison for selling guns legally

Postby Ohio9 » Fri Sep 09, 2016 12:12 pm

He bought the guns on gunbroker, then he turned around and sold them on armslist for a profit. He did this 41 times. That's a pretty clear pattern of buying guns not intended for yourself, something the form you fill out for purchasing a gun clearly states you can't do (you have to sign stating you are buying the gun for yourself).

Also it should be noted the article said the ATF warned him to stop what he was doing after they found his guns at crime scenes, yet he kept it up anyway.

I don't think this is a major outrage. They guy was clearly constantly selling guns for profit without an FFL, and the ATF gave him a chance to stop before making an arrest. I think the law should be more well defined to explain what constitutes being in the business of selling firearms, but either way it still seems like he was clearly and knowingly violating it.

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Re: Prison for selling guns legally

Postby Nathan » Fri Sep 09, 2016 12:16 pm

Ohio9 wrote: He did this 41 times.

...so, just how many times is legal?

Simple question, direct answer please. This is the very issue; there is no defined number. Today it's 41, but would it have been had it been 40? 38? Where is the line?

There isn't one. It's arbitrary. Law should never be arbitrary.
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Re: Prison for selling guns legally

Postby Ohio9 » Fri Sep 09, 2016 12:21 pm

Nathan wrote:There isn't one. It's arbitrary. Law should never be arbitrary.


Agreed. As I said in my first response, the law should be changed so that there is a clear definition of "being in the business of selling firearm". However, in this case the guy can't plead ignorance since the ATF warned him he was violating the law and gave him a chance to stop before making the arrest. He had a golden opportunity to bail himself out of this situation. He just chose to ignore it.

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Re: Prison for selling guns legally

Postby Hand and Steel » Fri Sep 09, 2016 1:20 pm

“Engaging in the business of unlicensed firearms sales is a serious crime that circumvents the critical background check routinely performed by legitimate licensed firearms dealers to prevent those persons who cannot legally possess firearms from acquiring them,” said Assistant U.S. Attorney Benjamin Bejar in a statement.


Of course, buying from GunBroker or ArmsList requires transfer through a FFL, so there would still be a background check. Dumbass piece of s*** bureaucrat doesn't even know the s*** he's passing off as the holy word of law.

Ohio9 wrote:He bought the guns on gunbroker, then he turned around and sold them on armslist for a profit. He did this 41 times. That's a pretty clear pattern of buying guns not intended for yourself, something the form you fill out for purchasing a gun clearly states you can't do (you have to sign stating you are buying the gun for yourself).

Also it should be noted the article said the ATF warned him to stop what he was doing after they found his guns at crime scenes, yet he kept it up anyway.

I don't think this is a major outrage. They guy was clearly constantly selling guns for profit without an FFL, and the ATF gave him a chance to stop before making an arrest.


Was he violating anyone's natural rights by selling guns through ArmsList for a profit? It seems the only "laws" he circumvented were mala prohibita (and unconstitutional) restrictions requiring bribes to be paid to a federal gang of thugs in return for the exercise of his natural right to sell rightfully acquired private property on the free market.

So who's the REAL criminal - the private salesman, or the ATF and federal court system?
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Re: Prison for selling guns legally

Postby Ohio9 » Fri Sep 09, 2016 1:41 pm

Hand and Steel wrote:Of course, buying from GunBroker or ArmsList requires transfer through a FFL, so there would still be a background check. Dumbass piece of s*** bureaucrat doesn't even know the s*** he's passing off as the holy word of law.


Armslist doesn't involve a background check for private in-state sales that occur as a result of a face-to-face transaction between buyer and seller. From what I've heard, that's how most of their commerce is done.

Anyway you did see the part where this guy's guns were turning up at crime scenes, right? This wasn't just some trevial paperwork violation here, it seems like his sales were resulting in tangible harm.

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Re: Prison for selling guns legally

Postby Hand and Steel » Sat Sep 10, 2016 5:23 pm

Ohio9 wrote:Anyway you did see the part where this guy's guns were turning up at crime scenes, right? This wasn't just some trevial paperwork violation here, it seems like his sales were resulting in tangible harm.


If you sell a gun to someone else without any indication that they intend to commit a crime with it, are you responsible for what they do with? By that logic every gun shop the world over is guilty of any crimes committed with weapons they sold.
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Re: Prison for selling guns legally

Postby Ohio9 » Sat Sep 10, 2016 11:36 pm

No a person isn't responsible for the crimes of those he sells guns too. If he was being prosecuted for the crimes committed by his customers, I would oppose that. But he isn't, he was prosecuted for the law he broke.

It really didn't occur to him there was a reason his buyers were willing to pay a higher price then standard market value to buy his guns privately on armslist? If it didn't, that call from the ATF clearly should have.

Imagine you receive a call from the ATF, and they say "Hey dude, we found out you've been buying a lot of guns on gunbroker and then selling them on armslist. The only reason we found this out is because several of them were used in crimes. Since you're breaking the law by making all these sales without an FFL and your guns are being used in crimes, we'd really appreciate it if you'd stop."

How would you respond to this? Would you just carry on with business as usual?

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Re: Prison for selling guns legally

Postby Nathan » Sun Sep 11, 2016 11:37 am

What precise law was broken? Are private sales legal in his state?
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Re: Prison for selling guns legally

Postby hkguy » Sun Sep 11, 2016 6:56 pm

I believe ron was served the same letter for doing the same thing a few years ago. at the time he just got his FFL and was never bothered again. now that home based FFL's are forbidden this definitely puts those who skirt the grey line in a tough position.

I think the operative word here is intent. it would be hard to convince a jury that all of those were for personal use especially if they were in his possession for only a short period of time. I understand there is buyers remorse and there are times were there are deals too good to pass up, but 41 firearms in two years. even that seems business like to me.
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Re: Prison for selling guns legally

Postby samuelrp » Sun Sep 11, 2016 7:26 pm

hkguy wrote:I understand there is buyers remorse and there are times were there are deals too good to pass up, but 41 firearms in two years. even that seems business like to me.


I guess A few on here better get that license :lol: 41 in two years, why that's only 1.6 firearms a month!
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Re: Prison for selling guns legally

Postby Ohio9 » Sun Sep 11, 2016 8:35 pm

Nathan wrote:What precise law was broken? Are private sales legal in his state?


It was a federal law that was broken, which is why he was arrested by the feds.

It should be noted that he pled guilty. If he really thought he had broken no laws, he should have made his case in court.

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Re: Prison for selling guns legally

Postby Nathan » Sun Sep 11, 2016 8:49 pm

Ohio9 wrote:It should be noted that he pled guilty. If he really thought he had broken no laws, he should have made his case in court.

Now that's not true at all. The Fed has an infinite budget to prosecute you. Some won't qualify for a court appointed attorney yet still cannot afford a $100,000 legal defense. Often its easier to plea in hopes of having something left to go home to when all is said and done.

I realize the law was federal; I'm waiting on hearing the magic number that was reached making his actions criminal.
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Re: Prison for selling guns legally

Postby Nathan » Sun Sep 11, 2016 8:50 pm

hkguy wrote:but 41 firearms in two years. even that seems business like to me.

How many would not be a business? I buy many guns as investments; does that make me a gun dealer?
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Re: Prison for selling guns legally

Postby hkguy » Sun Sep 11, 2016 9:21 pm

Nathan wrote:
hkguy wrote:but 41 firearms in two years. even that seems business like to me.

How many would not be a business? I buy many guns as investments; does that make me a gun dealer?


as do i, but how many "investments" do you immediately flipped compared to being stowed in the back of your safe?? there is a difference between stowing away a couple of pythons, a sig 210, a P9S in the back of your safe and buying 20 guns over a years time and selling those same 20 guns over the same period. its purely related to intent and reasonable doubt. like i said earlier, randy found himself is this same situation and opted to get his FFL when the ATF came knocking.

there are many details that we are not privy to for the case but is sounds like the guy could not justify the transactions as being for personal reasons.
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Re: Prison for selling guns legally

Postby Ohio9 » Sun Sep 11, 2016 9:51 pm

Nathan wrote:
I realize the law was federal; I'm waiting on hearing the magic number that was reached making his actions criminal.


We've already established there is no "magic number". As I said before, if he really felt buying and then immediately selling that many guns over that time frame wasn't a crime, he should have gone to court. But I can understand why he didn't.

Any sympathy I might have had for the guy faded the moment I read the part where the feds gave him a warning to stop and then waited for him to make more sales before they arrested him. He passed up a golden opportunity to let himself off the hook and now has only himself to blame.

And the thing is, I really don't get why. The article said he made an average of 90 dollars profit per gun. 41x90 = roughly 3,900 dollars. That's not a whole lot for a 2-year span. Why would anyone knowingly risk arrest for that? Even if you are in dire financial straits, that kind of money won't help that much.

Nathan wrote:I buy many guns as investments; does that make me a gun dealer?


Do you sell large quantities of them to private buyers within days of buying them?

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Re: Prison for selling guns legally

Postby Hand and Steel » Mon Sep 12, 2016 5:28 am

Ohio9 wrote:Any sympathy I might have had for the guy faded the moment I read the part where the feds gave him a warning to stop and then waited for him to make more sales before they arrested him. He passed up a golden opportunity to let himself off the hook and now has only himself to blame.


That's like saying "I lost all sympathy for the mugging victim cause he chose not to hand over his possessions when threatened and got hurt as a result".
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Re: Prison for selling guns legally

Postby Nathan » Mon Sep 12, 2016 6:58 am

Ohio9 wrote:Do you sell large quantities of them to private buyers within days of buying them?

...so how many guns can I buy and sell over how many days?

You or nobody else can provide an answer to that question; this is the core of the problem.
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Re: Prison for selling guns legally

Postby hkguy » Mon Sep 12, 2016 7:34 am

Nathan wrote:
Ohio9 wrote:Do you sell large quantities of them to private buyers within days of buying them?

...so how many guns can I buy and sell over how many days?

You or nobody else can provide an answer to that question; this is the core of the problem.


its the government, there is no hard rule. they just make stuff up as they go. even if there was a hard rule, it would be enforced differently based race and affluence. Ask the AFT, they might be able to give you some guidelines, of which would be subjectively enforced.
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Re: Prison for selling guns legally

Postby Ohio9 » Mon Sep 12, 2016 6:10 pm

Hand and Steel wrote:That's like saying "I lost all sympathy for the mugging victim cause he chose not to hand over his possessions when threatened and got hurt as a result".


The ATF didn't approach this guy to steal money from him, the came to tell him to stop breaking the law, and they only found out about it because the guns he was selling were being used in crimes. Far from trying to take his life or property, they gave him ample opportunity to get out of this situation with both of those things intact. It's a trend I'd like to see them continue.

Nathan wrote:You or nobody else can provide an answer to that question; this is the core of the problem.


On that point I agree.

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Re: Prison for selling guns legally

Postby Hand and Steel » Tue Sep 13, 2016 12:09 am

Ohio9 wrote:The ATF didn't approach this guy to steal money from him, the came to tell him to stop breaking the law, and they only found out about it because the guns he was selling were being used in crimes.


What is a license to sell firearms? Costs money. Licensing is saying "Pay us in order to do something, or we will punish you". Licensing is a form of theft.
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Re: Prison for selling guns legally

Postby Nathan » Tue Sep 13, 2016 8:06 am

Ohio9 wrote:
Hand and Steel wrote:That's like saying "I lost all sympathy for the mugging victim cause he chose not to hand over his possessions when threatened and got hurt as a result".


The ATF didn't approach this guy to steal money from him, the came to tell him to stop breaking the law, and they only found out about it because the guns he was selling were being used in crimes. Far from trying to take his life or property, they gave him ample opportunity to get out of this situation with both of those things intact. It's a trend I'd like to see them continue.

Nathan wrote:You or nobody else can provide an answer to that question; this is the core of the problem.


On that point I agree.
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Re: Prison for selling guns legally

Postby Ohio9 » Wed Sep 14, 2016 6:04 am

Hand and Steel wrote:
Ohio9 wrote:The ATF didn't approach this guy to steal money from him, the came to tell him to stop breaking the law, and they only found out about it because the guns he was selling were being used in crimes.


What is a license to sell firearms? Costs money. Licensing is saying "Pay us in order to do something, or we will punish you". Licensing is a form of theft.


Licensing isn't always about money. It's also a way to checking for competence in professions with major potential to harm others when performed improperly. Think of ER doctors and airline pilots. Is it really so horrible that they have to get licenses? I'll be the first to admit there are way too many professions that require licenses, but in some cases the requirements can have merit.

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Re: Prison for selling guns legally

Postby Hand and Steel » Wed Sep 14, 2016 3:44 pm

A license is permission to do something which is normally illegal.

How is the right to keep and bear arms not infringed if it is illegal to be in the business of selling weapons?

How is it NOT INFRINGED if you have to pay to exercise a right?

The whole idea of licensing, while there are certain arguments that can be made for it, is a slippery slope, and ultimately is a restriction upon what a person may or may not do by private agreement, which ultimately takes power out of the hands of the individual an puts it into the hands of bureaucrats, while also making them a few bucks off the "law abiding tax payer".
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Re: Prison for selling guns legally

Postby Ohio9 » Wed Sep 14, 2016 4:25 pm

My question from before remains. Do you oppose licensing for jobs with great potential to harm others if done improperly, such as ER doctors and Airline pilots? Why or why not?

Hand and Steel wrote:How is the right to keep and bear arms not infringed if it is illegal to be in the business of selling weapons?


It's not illegal to be in the business of selling firearms. You just have to get an FFL to do so.


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